Reading Elliot Rodger’s Manifesto, some thoughts

29 05 2014

I recently read the early parts of Elliot Rodger’s manifesto. Needless to say his story sparked a lot of thoughts and emotions from me. Similar to myself, video games was a central part of his life in the younger years. Like him, I was obsessed with the latest console and technology. I had a non-existent social life in high-school except for the few I spoke with at the lunch period of misfits. I spent most of my time in game during my out of school hours, and it just seems that everything else in life are just things that got in the way between me and my games. Later video games became a major distraction for me in my academic pursuits as my obsession with it made me have trouble budgeting my time. It seems to me, many incels have video game addiction, even Aziz Shavershian before this transformation. I am wondering what-if Elliot made the same choice Shavershian did. Elliot was short and weak, only if he sold his WOW account for a gym membership.

 

What also struck me is that even though in his manifesto he talk of school experiences, he mostly mentions girls, friends, hobbies and popularity. Never once did I read about anything related to the academics. When I went to school, when I did not obsess with video games I thought of academic studies. Things like girls, fashion, sports, and popularity almost never occurred to me. When my peers busting their butts pursuing beer and pussy in college I was actually baffled at their obsession, as video games and school work occupied most of my thoughts. It wasn’t until I was in graduate school did I realize I had “girl problems”. Perhaps the eastern values I mention before had saved my sanity as long as it had…

Advertisements

Actions

Information

174 responses

29 05 2014
P Ray

When you make enough bread to get some serious assets, consider “sex for rent” transactions.
Since there’s no money involved, it’s barter and not prostitution.

Women may rage at this, but they act coquettish and promise things to men in exchange for favours.
It’s a man’s fault if he decides to collect, after delivering on his end.
Weird world, eh?

29 05 2014
P Ray

And in case some people are getting ideas to pull some extortion(by filming the landlord), they should read this:
Tenants’ Sex-for-Rent Scheme a Front for Extortion

By Ron LeshnowerAugust 18, 2010
Two female tenants at an apartment complex in Fairfax County, Virginia offered their landlord sexual favors in return for a month’s rent, claiming an inability to pay. The landlord allegedly agreed to the arrangement, according to a report yesterday from The Washington Post.

But it wasn’t until later when the landlord discovered the tenants’ real plot: to extort the landlord for several thousands of dollars. Apparently, while the landlord was over the tenants’ apartment to make good on their sex-for-rent offer, the tenants secretly taped him. According to the Post, they then threatened the landlord with sending a copy of the video to his wife unless he paid them $11,000.

The landlord instead called the police, who raided the apartment and took the tenants into custody. They now face charges of threatening extortion, a felony that carries up to a 10-year prison sentence in Virginia.

31 05 2014
Maia Gerlinger

If this agreement is explicit and consensual up-front, that’s one thing. However, if someone had offered to pay my rent as a gift and I accepted, and then he later demanded sex for it, I would feel as though I had been tricked!

This is a common damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t dilemma for women. Let’s say a man whom you do not find attractive offers to buy you a drink at a bar. If you accept, they might accuse you of just “using” them to buy drinks, claiming that you “knew” what they wanted and that they expect to be “paid back.” Fine. Let’s say you decline. Then they might get angry about it in person (and possibly attack you — someone recently shot a woman who had turned him down) — or else you’ll have to see online over and over again about how women “won’t even let you buy them a drink” and “never give you a chance” etc. etc. What to do?

31 05 2014
survivingincel

most women have no problem telling ugly guys who has the audacity to hit on them too fuck off

4 06 2014
angelwanderer

Too true. Or if they can’t their best friend will. The use of ‘fuck off’ is pretty generic these days. Men are like shit on their shoes to these callous bitches. -A

31 05 2014
P Ray

Let’s say you decline. Then they might get angry about it in person (and possibly attack you — someone recently shot a woman who had turned him down) — or else you’ll have to see online over and over again about how women “won’t even let you buy them a drink” and “never give you a chance” etc. etc. What to do?
That’s where you get to test the famous “women’s intuition”, after all, you people are in touch with the cosmos so you can tell the future, right?
Like Minority Report?

1 06 2014
P Ray

If this agreement is explicit and consensual up-front, that’s one thing.
Haha, if it was up-front and consensual, you would want it signed and then you’d get the guy blackballed by saying “this man asked me to sign a contract for sex in exchange for not paying rent”.
Just the same way you’d mince a guy who had a document saying “no dates unless there’s sex”.
No, the current system in place works quite well, thank you.
Unless a man is solely living off his own employment and makes enough money as a landlord, if he is in employment to others, such an agreement will make him the target of blackmail. Not to mention, violence at the hands of whiteknights.

1 06 2014
Maia Gerlinger

Sorry for replying here — there’s isn’t a “reply” link to your other comments, for some reason!

Haha, I most certainly would not want it signed! I am perfectly aware that that is illegal and would never expect someone to put himself at risk that way. However, there DO exist happy, consensual agreements such as this one — just look at any “sugar babies” website. I have a friend of a friend who is quite happy in such an arrangement: the terms are clear; they had both agreed to them. When the terms are unclear, though, and merely implied, and the “gift” turns out not to be a gift at all, hurt feelings occur on both sides.

4 06 2014
angelwanderer

Bat their eyelids to get a free drink, shake their toosh to get a man’s attention, undo their top button to get out of a speeding ticket – and then have the ordacity to shout in our faces and tell us that they aren’t sexual objects.

31 05 2014
Maia Gerlinger

“I am wondering what-if Elliot made the same choice Shavershian did. Elliot was short and weak, only if he sold his WOW account for a gym membership.”

That’s a great point! I also wonder what would have happened if Ellliot had taken it upon himself to improve in his social skills as well. I’m not just talking about making it into mixed-gender groups, I mean BEYOND that — what if he had made one or two good female friends? Better yet, what if he had made one female friend in whom he had absolutely no interest — someone he found very unattractive? He would then have been able to a) become more comfortable around women, and understand better what makes them uncomfortable or frightened*, and b) she would eventually have been able to introduce him to other women much better than a male friend could have.

* Elliot writes again and again about walking around town smiling at women and hoping to be smiled back at. When they do not smile back, he takes it as a personal rejection. What he does not seem to know is how AFRAID of men most women are — so many women have been sexually assaulted or just assaulted that even something as innocent as a smile from a stranger can make a woman speed up her steps. Ironically, Elliot’s actions have contributed to this fear.

31 05 2014
survivingincel

this is the bitch and Cad culture I have been posting about before…

1 06 2014
Maia Gerlinger

hey i scrolled all the way down your blog until july 2012 and couldn’t find anything. link plz? sorry for the inconvenience

31 05 2014
P Ray

* Elliot writes again and again about walking around town smiling at women and hoping to be smiled back at. When they do not smile back, he takes it as a personal rejection. What he does not seem to know is how AFRAID of men most women are — so many women have been sexually assaulted or just assaulted that even something as innocent as a smile from a stranger can make a woman speed up her steps. Ironically, Elliot’s actions have contributed to this fear.
Explain the number of women getting drunk and going home with guys they just met.
Oh yeah, women are “really AFRAID” of (ugly) men.

1 06 2014
Maia Gerlinger

In a bar, you have a little bit to get to know someone; if you chat, and find that you have similar interests, or go to the same school (thus making him less of a stranger), or even have some mutual friends, that person seems like less of a threat. When someone smiles at you on the street, especially late at night, that’s a different story altogether.

1 06 2014
Maia Gerlinger

And yes, of course, a woman would be more inclined to dismiss her fears — to talk herself out of them — if the man were good-looking. Why is this wrong, or something to be derided? Every human cares about looks, to a certain extent; some more than others, of course.

1 06 2014
P Ray

When someone smiles at you on the street, especially late at night, that’s a different story altogether.
For some women, rape is “sex they regret”.
It’s usually the regular-to-ugly guy that gets accused of that, which is kind of amazing.
Almost like a certain lack of opportunities based upon looks-ism creates a crime underclass,
which happens to be almost totally male, since females can sell the sexuality – or “pretend to sell it then say someone tried to rape them, and pocket the money”.
We’re clearly not going to agree, so why deflect issues?

1 06 2014
Maia

For some women, rape is “sex they regret”.
This may be true for some women. I do not know all women. However, I have never made this claim, and none of my female friends have ever claimed to be rape, except for one, whose black eye and beaten face I saw with my own eyes. But this is just anecdotal evidence; I cannot, of course, prove that this is uncommon for women to do.

But can you prove that it is common? Do you have statistics that prove that women are definitively lying, or even anecdotal evidence (do you know women who have done such a thing)?

a certain lack of opportunities based upon looks-ism creates a crime underclass,
which happens to be almost totally male

I would argue that women are judged just as harshly on their looks, if not more harshly, than men. Why do more women have eating disorders and undergo plastic surgery? Why do women onscreen have to wear makeup and be beautiful — otherwise they’re useless? Why do we discuss how Hillary Clinton looks but not John McCain? An ugly female movie star would not go far; however, in our world, Steve Buscemi is possible.

We’re clearly not going to agree, so why deflect issues?
Haha, do you mean why talk at all? Or, if you do mean deflect, what issue am I deflecting? Sorry — I didn’t realize I was off-topic!

1 06 2014
survivingincel

guys who hit on them are never hot enough… many of them would gladly take abuse if its from a hot guy

1 06 2014
Maia

YIKES! Wait, how do you know this? Be careful of groundless hypothesizing!

1 06 2014
P Ray

^ Shhh, hearing that truth is painful to women.
Also, women “choose to know” guys they’re attracted to.
In other words, and I’ve even seen this myself – the “strong silent type”, if he’s handsome, GIRLS TRY TO FIT IN WITH THEM.
You know the type “She: Oh, you like playing Call of Duty” “Guy: Yes” “She: Oh, so do I, I like that bit where you have to rescue Captain Price” blablabla.
Women fill in the silence for guys they’re attracted to, and reply in monosyllables to guys they’re not attracted to, but must look as if they’re giving the time of day to, to avoid being classed as “bitches” and “users”, eventhough, the reason they’re not just outright walking away is because they know that “being friends with everyone”, is a way to later have this weapon “I thought that nerdy guy was going to be kind, but he’s a creep who wants sex in order to help me with my homework”.
In other words:
Nerdy guy = tool, Handsome guy, even if retarded = deep man.

1 06 2014
Maia

Would you say men are different? Would you say men are not more inclined to strike up conversation with a beautiful woman than with an ugly one?

Also, jesus christ, what kind of women are these? Cheerleaders? Do fellow nerdy women treat nerdy men this way? Have you even tried talking to fellow nerdy women, or women who are not “sorority girl” types? Furthermore, what is this, middle school? Where I went to college, people didn’t speak in “monosyllables” to avoid other people. The world you’re describing honestly sounds right out of a cilched high school movie where there’s a blond airhead cheerleader who can’t do her own homework and is mean to nerds and loves jocks.

All I really know about is the world I know, right? So if you say that you’ve encountered a world like this, I have to believe you, and it deeply saddens me that places like that exist. However, in the world that I know, men and women are good friends, I have never asked a man to “help me with my homework” because I am very good at school, and my long-term ex-boyfriend was overweight and unattractive but brilliant, and I had fallen for him immediately.

1 06 2014
P Ray

Also, jesus christ, what kind of women are these? Cheerleaders? Do fellow nerdy women treat nerdy men this way? Have you even tried talking to fellow nerdy women, or women who are not “sorority girl” types? Furthermore, what is this, middle school? Where I went to college, people didn’t speak in “monosyllables” to avoid other people. The world you’re describing honestly sounds right out of a cilched high school movie where there’s a blond airhead cheerleader who can’t do her own homework and is mean to nerds and loves jocks.
Jesus Christ I’m amazed that you think regular women would treat regular guys decently.
What planet are you on? What I’ve seen is the reason why men point out that “the majority of women” are attracted to the 10% guys.
That’s also another reason why women have higher amounts of STDs than men.
They’re sharing the same guys, either serially or in parallel.
Sometimes I think women are rational, then along you come to invalidate the honest life experiences of someone who has been observant enough to keep a good record of what happens in their and others’ lives.

2 06 2014
Maia

Jesus Christ, I’m amazed you have problems believing that regular women DON’T treat regular guys decently.
That’s why I’m here! I noticed that there’s a huge discrepancy between my worldview and the worldview espoused on this blog / other incel blogs, and I’m determined to find out why.

You do know there is a reason men believe that most women are only interested in the top 10% men, right?
I don’t think all men believe this — my random sample of 2 both say they disagree, but of course this is a very small sample size. Still, this raises the question: How many men think this?

Women have higher STD rates than men, precisely because they are sharing the same guys, either serially or in parallel.
Wow, I didn’t know that! That’s really interesting. However are you sure it’s because “they are sharing the same guys”? According to this website, it is thought that this discrepancy is due to the higher number of women getting screened. I’m not saying that this definitively is the case, but I just want to warn you against making causation assertions if the reason isn’t really known.

It will always be a problem for regular guys to speak up, because just when they think women are rational, along come ones like you who say their experiences aren’t valid.
I’ll say this again: I believe you. Louder: I BELIEVE YOU. I believe what you say about your experiences; I have no reason not to. Again, that’s why I’m here: to try to reconcile your experiences with mine — which are so, so different — and try to figure out why they’ve been so different.

It hurts me that you say that “along come women like me” who prove that women are irrational; I feel as though I’ve been pretty careful and irrational throughout this conversation. Typically my objections are reasoning-based, and not emotion-based. However, of course I would be biased, since I’m judging myself, so if I’ve been irrational or overly-hasty, I apologize.

It’s a good thing I recorded my observations about mine and others’ lives, otherwise I’d think I had imagined it …
Where can I find these observations?

4 06 2014
angelwanderer

How many men think this? Add another.
Warning of STD causation? What will happen if the assertion is wrong? Will the world end?

Men have no say. No one listens. No one believes. They are now at a place women were once at. Some live with it and survive and some find a new kind of anger bubbling to the surface. -A.

1 06 2014
P Ray

I also wonder what would have happened if Ellliot had taken it upon himself to improve in his social skills as well. I’m not just talking about making it into mixed-gender groups, I mean BEYOND that — what if he had made one or two good female friends?
After the fallout of this case, what makes you think a woman wants to own up to being his female friend?
After all, women give lousy advice about relationships to guys who ask, e.g. “What kind of qualities are you looking for in a guy?”
the woman, already has a guy in mind (it’s not the guy asking the question), and she wants that prince charming to have those qualities.
She wouldn’t be interested in the guy asking the question – even if he did develop those qualities.
Because, he answer is tailored towards … the guy she is ALREADY attracted to (who is not the guy asking the question).

1 06 2014
Maia Gerlinger

I only say that he has no female friends because he mentioned in his manifesto that he had only ever had one female friend — Maddie, I think her name was? I took his word for it.

I think you’re missing my point; the woman matchmaking for him would NOT be a woman he was interested in. (That would just complicate things!) Rather, she would help him find someone. It’s clear that he had little experience with women, given his lack of female friends, and I just think it would have been helpful for him to have some female guidance.

1 06 2014
P Ray

I think you’re missing my point; the woman matchmaking for him would NOT be a woman he was interested in.
From what I’ve observed in a university hall of residence over 3 years, women don’t matchmake people unless there is a very real fear of the guy refusing to provide some (rare) utility if he doesn’t get his needs met.

It’s clear that he had little experience with women, given his lack of female friends, and I just think it would have been helpful for him to have some female guidance.
The more nurturing gender didn’t want to provide that gender, why is that?

1 06 2014
Maia

Women don’t matchmake strangers! I mean, not just women; nobody does. They do, however, matchmake good friends. I don’t just mean study buddies, I mean close friends, good friends. Four out of my seven best friends are male — they will be bridesmaids/whatever at my wedding — and I have matchmake’d for them, because I love them.

The “more nurturing gender” probably had no idea! AGAIN, when does he ever actually go up and talk to a girl? He talks a lot about entering rooms and being angry that nobody looks at him (which, to be honest, is a feeling I’ve had before myself, but I’ve at least recognized that as childish, since I am not the center of everyone’s life), but he doesn’t join any clubs, try to meet girls with common interests and have conversations with them, etc. I’m not talking about going up to women in a bar, I mean, like, meeting during rock-climbing, or D&D, or something. Making friends with women is similar to making friends with men: you need some kind of common ground, and some reason to talk. You couldn’t just walk up to a man in a bar and expect him to automatically be your friend if you purchase him something; you’d need to realize you’re both Game of Thrones fans, or something.

Were women supposed to just look at him and know that he needed guidance? It’s not that women refused to provide that assistance, it’s just that he didn’t know any women.

1 06 2014
P Ray

The more nurturing gender didn’t want to provide that assistance, why is that?

1 06 2014
P Ray

Women “choose to know” guys they’re attracted to, even going up to them without prompting, and calling and messaging them.
You’re a very obtuse 23 year old, Maia. In this day and age of equality, women are allowed to speak to men by starting the conversation first.

1 06 2014
Maia

But I also “chose to know” my male friends, many of whom I’m not attracted to. I struck up friendships with them because we took some of the same classes, and I thought what they said in class was smart or relevant; or I struck up friendships with them because it came out during group smalltalk that they liked the same books or TV shows or movies that I did; or else I ended up friends with them because we had mutual friends, and so always ended up hanging out together, and got to know each other that way. As a woman myself, I can assure you that I’m not some scheming monster who shoots out tentacles to grab all the “hot guys” and leaves all the “nerdy guys” crying in the dust. I am just a normal person who makes friends normally and sometimes falls in love.

1 06 2014
P Ray

As a woman myself, I can assure you that I’m not some scheming monster who shoots out tentacles to grab all the “hot guys” and leaves all the “nerdy guys” crying in the dust.
Logically, you can’t … as you can’t be everywhere at once AND there are probably girls AS hot if not hotter than you out there (I’ve seen pictures).
Please, don’t flatter yourself, some nerdy guys will either become slumlords, or go overseas or simply make their capital unavailable.

Society exists when all contribute, when men are not given incentives, who will take up the slack? Sure hope women are ready for equality, after all, they can do everything a man can!

2 06 2014
Maia

1. Logically, you can’t … as you can’t be everywhere at once AND there are probably girls AS hot if not hotter than you out there (I’ve seen pictures).
I was using hyperbole to underscore the fact that this woman, at least, is not looks-obsessed. (Also, I’m not hot. I’d rate myself probably a 4 out of 10, if that. Good thing men look for things besides looks, too.)

2. Please, don’t flatter yourself, some nerdy guys will either become slumlords, or go overseas or simply make their capital unavailable
I’m really sorry, I’ve read this several times and can’t make sense of it. I think you might be using an assumption that I don’t share because our worldviews are so different. Could you explain this? Apologies for my obtuseness.

3. Society exists when all contribute, when men are not given incentives, who will take up the slack? Sure hope women are ready for equality, after all, they can do everything a man can!
A little confused here as well — it seems to me that you’re basically saying that the a) the only reason for men to financially suceed is to “get” women, so b) if women are not “gotten” then society will cease to exist? Is that the idea?

4 06 2014
P Ray

A little confused here as well — it seems to me that you’re basically saying that the a) the only reason for men to financially suceed is to “get” women, so b) if women are not “gotten” then society will cease to exist? Is that the idea?
Dissention has an answer your entitled question:
“A society that demands a lot from individuals without fulfilling its end of the bargain, both the explicit and implicit parts, become dysfunctional and fragile- especially if it cannot find more suckers to replace the ones burnt out by believing those lies and misrepresentations.

So how does that play out in the Elliot Rodger saga? Well, most societies make one peculiar, but often ignored, implicit bargain with its male individual members. It can be summarized as- “doing x,y and z or having a, b and c will almost certainly ensure you sexual access to a non-ugly woman”. Note that this almost always an implicit bargain and not an absolute guarantee. However it is fair to say that it is meant to be true for the vast majority of its male membership.

So what happens if circumstances, or large-scale social changes, make these implicit promises untrue for anything beyond a small minority of its male membership?

The short answer is that you get people like Elliot Rodger. The somewhat longer answer to that question as follows.. A number of large scale social changes such as women working outside the house, easily available oral contraception, social atomization etc has short-circuited many of the “traditional” ways for most men to appear as viable mates to most women. Now, this does not mean that women have lost interest in men. Indeed, the more desirable men have no problems getting tons of women to have sex with them.

These changes have however made many of the older “do x,y, z or have a, b, c to get women” either irrelevant or an afterthought. Society, at large, has however not been honest about these changes and still keeps trying the old stuff. While younger men are increasingly aware of the nature and extent of this gap between reality and official talking points, it fair to say that a significant minority of them have not gotten the message. Moreover, many of those who realize the nature and extent of this deception lose faith in the ability of society to make good on any of its other promises- explicit and implicit.

So while it is technically correct that society or women did not owe Elliot Rodger sex, it is also technically correct that he did NOT have to keep on playing by their rules. Functional contracts, you see, are a two-way street.”

I’ll end by saying: It’s unfortunate that you’re not hot.
It’s delusional if you think there are still vast amounts of men out there that will take an entitled attitude, poor mate future job prospects and an unsympathetic view towards male problems as something to accept, when they could have their money, sex tours and no nagging to look forward to.

4 06 2014
Maia

I absolutely agree with you that this implicit bargain a) existed in society before, and b) was the reason what Elliot Rodger was so unhappy. You and I agree completely on this point. In fact, I think many people share this view — http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-princess-is-in-another-castle-misogyny-entitlement-and-nerds.html (“But the overall problem is one of a culture where instead of seeing women as, you know, people, protagonists of their own stories just like we are of ours, men are taught that women are things to “earn,” to “win.” That if we try hard enough and persist long enough, we’ll get the girl in the end. Like life is a video game and women, like money and status, are just part of the reward we get for doing well.”)

However, where we disagree is whether this bargain should exist at all. It was all very well when women didn’t have much of a choice as to whom they would marry — their fathers decided — but now that society has finally recognized that women are people, as much the protagonists of their own stories as men are, “ensuring sexual access” becomes a trickier question. If the other party has free will, you can ensure nothing.

How, then, do you gain sexual access? Well, if your partners are people with free will, the answer becomes: you have to make women like you, or want to have sex with you. And yes, you’re right — some people are better at that than others. And yes, you’re right — that’s not fair. But surely this is better than a world in which half of the population doesn’t have the freedom to love and to have sex with whom they will?

You misread me. I do not think there are “vast amounts of men out there,” nor do I particuarly care. Despite having had a rough time romantically in middle school and high school, which is a superficial and immature environment, I was able to meet like-minded people in college for whom intelligence and a moral compass were more important than “hotness.” I am now happily in a two-year relationship where I am by far the main breadwinner (I pay for 75% of the rent, 75% of the groceries, and give him pocket money to boot), so it is unfair of you to accuse me of “poor mate future job prospects” when you don’t know! I also would disagree that I am “unsympathetic” towards male problems; after all, again, this is something that I’m currently trying to learn about. (Plus, I have many male friends, and often try to learn from their perspectives as well.) And, see, by accusing me of “nagging,” you’re falling back on a negative female stereotype — how do you know that I nag?

I also don’t believe that I’m entitled — I hope I’m not! If so, entitled to what?

4 06 2014
P Ray

However, where we disagree is whether this bargain should exist at all. It was all very well when women didn’t have much of a choice as to whom they would marry — their fathers decided — but now that society has finally recognized that women are people, as much the protagonists of their own stories as men are, “ensuring sexual access” becomes a trickier question. If the other party has free will, you can ensure nothing.
It’s funny how women demand safety and security wherever they go to (provided for by men), but then say “sex when I feel like it”.
Smacks of, you know, a bad faith deal (in mala fide, if Latin’s your thing).

I am now happily in a two-year relationship where I am by far the main breadwinner (I pay for 75% of the rent, 75% of the groceries, and give him pocket money to boot), so it is unfair of you to accuse me of “poor mate future job prospects” when you don’t know! I also would disagree that I am “unsympathetic” towards male problems; after all, again, this is something that I’m currently trying to learn about.
I certainly hope you later don’t feel this arrangement is something to be regretted (or to square up) if the relationship doesn’t work out
(Offhand, women are very open to pay for expenses when in a relationship with a man on the cusp of a high-paying career e.g. medicine … with the implicit understanding once he starts earning, she gets a return on her “earlier investment”)

And, see, by accusing me of “nagging,” you’re falling back on a negative female stereotype — how do you know that I nag?
Perspective. To me, you’re nagging.
To the guy you’re with, it’s gentle reminders.

Like how, as previously I stated, rapists happen to be ugly, whereas it was a one-night-stand or no-strings-attached when a handsome guy decides to engage in a one-off sexual encounter with a girl/woman.

Shout out to survivingincel:
One of the ways women shut down MGTOW/MRA/PUA/relationship blogs, is by trying to get men to elaborate things over and over, drag out and nitpick things, then the man offers to prepare the woman a “special knuckle sandwich” and the woman tells the authorities “this blog is misogynistic, I feel afraid, shut it down”, then it gets shut down.
Just be aware some people might practice such incitement.

5 06 2014
Maia

I don’t demand safety and security as a woman (never have people go out of their way to walk me home, etc.) — but I do believe in law enforcement protecting all of our citizens because, you know, we’re a civilized society. This bewilders me a little bit; I feel like you’re going to come at me with WELL IF SOMEONE ATTACKED YOU AND A MALE POLICE OFFICER HELPED YOU HUH SO THERE YOU DO NEED MEN, but I would want a police officer to help me because I believe in law and order, not because I’m a woman. Apologies if I’m straw-man’ing you, but I’m just confused about your argument. How do women “demand safety and security”? Not meant as a challenge; I’m trying to figure out if I myself do this subconsciously and don’t realize it. And yes, Latin is my thing. 😉

Nope! I am certainly not going to slap him with a bill if things don’t work out. He’s a line cook, so he’s making minimum wage, which means it would be impossible for him to pay me back. I fully accept my responsibility as the higher-earning partner and understand that the money is a gift, not a loan.

Like how, as previously I stated, rapists happen to be ugly, whereas it was a one-night-stand or no-strings-attached when a handsome guy decides to engage in a one-off sexual encounter with a girl/woman.
I would still caution you to be careful about this. A, that pattern is not true in my experience. However, I will allow that maybe it is true in yours, sure. In that case, B, are you sure that’s the correct causal relationship? Maybe it actually is rape — maybe the correct causal relationship is that ugly men are more likely to rape than handsome men, because they’re more angry and less successful. I’m not saying that women are definitely not lying, but I am saying that you don’t know that they are, so don’t make assumptions. I can’t stress this enough: you really, really, REALLY don’t know this.

I am not trying to incite anything.

Two questions for you, in bona fide:
1. What can a heterosexual woman currently in a relationship do to help incels? I know that you will probably be suspicious of this question, but, after all, I am here because, after having read Rodger’s manifesto, I was moved to tears — both for the victims whose lives were cut short so suddenly and horrifyingly, and also for him himself, and his misery. What can I do?
2. That initial discussion we got into, about a drink-buying situation. Let’s say that someone comes up to me whom I am either not attracted to or do not get good vibes from (ranging from harmlessly socially awkward to a scarier potentially dangerous) and offers to buy me a drink. Let’s also imagine that I am single. Is it kinder for me to give him a chance and accept — and then if I do not leave the bar with him, be accused of “leading him on” — or just to refuse from the get-go so as to not give false impressions?

6 07 2014
P Ray

Oh, come now. Seriously, though: you should start using more citations, or at least personal anecdotes.
Fat slut offers sex to me. I refuse.
Some years later, she is married, and is a Catholic school teacher preaching morality.

Girl meets a friend of mine for a night out. Years later, she files a rape charge against him.

Friend I know, has a girlfriend. She wants to meet him to arrange an abortion for the child she is carrying from sex with someone else

Have I melted your mind enough? Please let me know if you require more.

6 07 2014
Maia

P Ray, I’m sorry to hear those anecdotes. But I do think that it would be a mistake to take those as evidence for the evil/materialism/selfishness of ALL women, just like listing anecdotes of theft and rape would be bad evidence for the evil/materialism/selfishness of human beings. Yes, of course bad women exist. In fact, probably about 50% of bad human beings are women! And people do bad things.

11 07 2014
P Ray

Maia, I get the feeling you’re engaging with me to badger me to lower my standards.
That’s precisely how we got to the situation of massive divorce, bastardy at an all time high, and STDs galore (for women).
When they pay no obvious penalty for choosing badly (unlike men, who either get financially raped (“trigger warning” LOL), divorce theft and lifetime alimony, or children used as weapons against them) …
the bad behaviour will continue and be reinforced.
Oh ya, I’m saving up for a wonderful sex tour in some years (probably with some delicious fresh tarts 🙂 )
Do call the FBI and see what they can do about such plans, LOL.
All incels need to recognise the power of money, and leverage their skill to get what they want.
‘Cause women do it, and men and women are equal 🙂

11 07 2014
Maia

No, I’m not going to badger you to lower your standards. What you’re looking for is your business, and you have the right to look for what you want.

HOWEVER. Whenever I read your thinking on women and what women “really want,” it seems as though you are just trembling with rage thinking about women and their horrible, horrible, awful, superficiality and materialism. I am just pointing out that, fine, be superficial and look ONLY FOR YOUNG BEAUTIFUL WOMEN all you want, but you cannot then call women who are only interested in men’s looks* superficial and be ANGRY about it, because you yourself do the same thing!

* Plus, that’s such a small minority of women. Some women are mostly interested in looks. Some in money. Some in brains, some in talent, some in a good sense of humor, some in kindness, etc. etc. etc. Women are people and thus are different from each other. When you reduce a group to a monolith, you strip its members of their humanity.

choosing badly
…what does this even mean? Choosing someone they don’t love? Or choosing someone who ends up hurting them? There are verbal and physical abusers out there.

11 07 2014
P Ray

HOWEVER. Whenever I read your thinking on women and what women “really want,” it seems as though you are just trembling with rage thinking about women and their horrible, horrible, awful, superficiality and materialism. I am just pointing out that, fine, be superficial and look ONLY FOR YOUNG BEAUTIFUL WOMEN all you want, but you cannot then call women who are only interested in men’s looks* superficial and be ANGRY about it, because you yourself do the same thing!
Looks like you didn’t come here to understand incels, you came here to tell men to “settle”.
Oh ya, every man who disagrees with a woman is “trembling with rage”.
Men are less emotional than women, that’s why they can have long range plans like planning for a sex tour 🙂
Let me give some fun predictions for you, since you have made some for me:
– you’re not going to marry the guy you’re with
– for a long time, if not your whole life, you won’t own a house
– chances are very good you can’t emigrate (I have permanent residency in Europe) 🙂

Every man telling you about his plans, is effectively saying, you can meet me halfway … or I’ll find someone who will.
On the other hand, in order for attraction to happen, there has to be something to work with 🙂

11 07 2014
Maia

1) Oh ya, every man who disagrees with a woman is “trembling with rage”. Not what I said, stop Straw Manning me.

2) Let me give some fun predictions for you, since you have made some for me:
– you’re not going to marry the guy you’re with
– for a long time, if not your whole life, you won’t own a house
– chances are very good you can’t emigrate (I have permanent residency in Europe) 🙂

I was not making any “predictions” for you, and I was not being rude to you, as you are to me. All I was pointing out was that you cannot be angry with the women who choose to be superficial since you choose to do that yourself.

3) Every man telling you about his plans, is effectively saying, you can meet me halfway … or I’ll find someone who will.
On the other hand, in order for attraction to happen, there has to be something to work with 🙂

Not sure what you’re getting at. Again, I already have a boyfriend, whom I support financially.

11 07 2014
P Ray

I am just pointing out that, fine, be superficial and look ONLY FOR YOUNG BEAUTIFUL WOMEN all you want, but you cannot then call women who are only interested in men’s looks* superficial and be ANGRY about it, because you yourself do the same thing!
All women are beautiful, it’s just that young women have the beauty I find attractive LOL.

Also, God has a sense of humour, exemplified in ugly jailbait 🙂

11 07 2014
P Ray

…what does this even mean? Choosing someone they don’t love? Or choosing someone who ends up hurting them? There are verbal and physical abusers out there.
Everyone knows and has proven women talk more than men,
Therefore they are the most likely to be the biggest verbal abusers out there.
And yet, men are the only ones singled out as being abusive.
So much for men and women are equal, LOL.

11 07 2014
Maia

I completely agree that men are unfairly accused of being verbal abusers. You’re right: this is not fair.

Nevertheless, you will agree that some men are verbal abusers, right? It is possible that a woman is being verbally abused?

11 07 2014
P Ray

Who gets “prosecuted” for it, determines who is in the “wrong”.
So since men are the only ones caught for abuse in all its forms, women are blameless angels 🙂
Pretty sure you lose marks in psychology, women’s studies and social studies if you deviate from the lovely Femmunist party line.

11 07 2014
Maia

I completely agreed with you that men abusing women are more likely to be found in the wrong for abuse; I also agree that that is horrible and unfair and more people need to be recognizing and acknowledging this problem. However, once again, we have “some ≠ all”: men are not the “only ones” (as you said) caught for abuse!

The number of women prosecuted for domestic violence rose from 1,575 in 2004-05 to 4,266 in 2008-09. (from The Guardian)

This is good! This is progress. Hopefully, we as a society can shake our preconceived and sexist notions that “men are always abusers and women are always abused” and wake up to the terrors that these victims invisibly suffer.

1 06 2014
P Ray

oh whoops. 25 year old. 1991 right?

1 06 2014
P Ray

Scratch that, my maths are acting up. It’s been a tiring day and I’m just …amazed at the obtuseness…

1 06 2014
Maia

My apologies. I am genuinely trying to understand. That’s why I’m here.

1 06 2014
P Ray

You can understand by reading this. I understand journalism isn’t for everyone, but maybe you can look at this and judge the truth of his words:
http://www.rooshv.com/you-have-no-idea-how-easy-it-is-for-good-looking-men

2 06 2014
Maia

Hi! I would appreciate it if you didn’t make put-downs like “I understand journalism isn’t for everyone” — it’s condescending (and unfounded). We disagree on many things, but that doesn’t mean you have to use sarcasm or make personal attacks. I think it’s really great when people who disagree are able to have dialogue and thereby learn from each other, but it’s not constructive if we try to insult each other.

I completely agree that life is very, very easy for good-looking men. But do you imagine that life is not easy for good-looking women? Good-looking women get everything in the entire world just handed to them. This is something that has caused me a great deal of jealousy and anguish throughout my life; I still have a gut reaction, whenever I see a conventionally “beautiful” women on the street, of anger. No, life isn’t fair, and I, too, have had the experience of every single time a man would approach me and a female friend, he would always flirt at the friend and not even look at me once, etc. Furthermore, if a man is ugly, he can still be successful if he becomes wealthy or powerful; however, women are frequently judged on their appearance no matter how wealthy or powerful they are (see: Hillary Clinton), which is why there exists a beauty market for women and not for men. For women, beauty is everything — if you don’t have that, you’re essentially worthless — and so the gap between the beautiful ones and the non-beautiful ones is vast. When I was ten, I prayed to God that he could take away all my intelligence if he would just make me beautiful.

I agree with Roosh V that American women care about looks. But I think that American men care about looks as much, if not more.

11 06 2014
P Ray

For women, beauty is everything — if you don’t have that, you’re essentially worthless — and so the gap between the beautiful ones and the non-beautiful ones is vast. When I was ten, I prayed to God that he could take away all my intelligence if he would just make me beautiful.
A false rape accusation from a woman REGARDLESS of beauty, can ruin men in Western AND Asian society.
BTW, God played a trick on you with regards to your bargain.
He’s a funny guy.

11 06 2014
Maia

And rape, regardless of beauty, can cause a woman deep psycological trauma in ANY societ, Western or Asian. What is your point?

Please don’t be rude; I’ve asked you once before.

11 06 2014
P Ray

Maia, did you see my magic words “FALSE RAPE ACCUSATION”.
What’s the difference between a rape and a false rape accusation?
In most cases, nothing really.*
Guy gets raked over coals, woman doesn’t get penalties that inconvenience their social life.
Oh yes, that accused also gets their name and face plastered around the newspapers
*except, one event happened … and the other DIDN’T.

11 06 2014
Maia

As a matter of fact, I did! What I was actually doing was making a different point than your point.

Surely you admit that rape exists — that not all rape accusations are false. Yes?

Guy gets raked over coals, woman doesn’t get penalties that inconvenience their social life.
In my personal experience (are you speaking from personal experience — have you actually known anyone who has been falsely accused of rape, or anyone who has claimed to be raped — or are you just relying on unsubstantiated stereotypes?) this is NOT TRUE. Two women I know claimed to have been raped. I will not say that they were definitely telling the truth, nor that they were lying, because
I don’t know — I wasn’t there, and I don’t believe in believing in things without evidence or good reason. HOWEVER. What I do know, beyond a doubt, is that both women were ridiculed, shamed, and lost many friends. (The accused, in one of the cases, went around and told everyone that she was making things up and that she was crazy.) Before you say something along the lines of “well she deserved it, she was probably lying,” remember that you don’t know that she was lying — and isn’t your entire point that people ought not to be punished for things we can’t prove? (And also: if she wasn’t lying? How horrible!) Women DO “get penalties that inconvenience their social life,” and severely. This is why *some* rapes go unreported, because some women are too afraid of the backlash, especially if they are raped by a friend (they might lose all their other friends, etc.).

1 06 2014
P Ray

Also, jesus christ, what kind of women are these? Cheerleaders? Do fellow nerdy women treat nerdy men this way? Have you even tried talking to fellow nerdy women, or women who are not “sorority girl” types? Furthermore, what is this, middle school? Where I went to college, people didn’t speak in “monosyllables” to avoid other people. The world you’re describing honestly sounds right out of a cilched high school movie where there’s a blond airhead cheerleader who can’t do her own homework and is mean to nerds and loves jocks.
Jesus Christ, I’m amazed you have problems believing that regular women DON’T treat regular guys decently.
You do know there is a reason men believe that most women are only interested in the top 10% men, right?
Rather than just talk about “suspicion”, let me tell you about something empirical:
Women have higher STD rates than men, precisely because they are sharing the same guys, either serially or in parallel.
It will always be a problem for regular guys to speak up, because just when they think women are rational, along come ones like you who say their experiences aren’t valid.
It’s a good thing I recorded my observations about mine and others’ lives, otherwise I’d think I had imagined it … 🙂

3 06 2014
Lon Spector

“Eastern Values” CAN save your sanity. Values like Buddism
and Taosim.
Remember the show “Kung Fu” starring David Carridine?
He played a taoist monk. He didn’t bother much with women.
But David Carridine died a pathetic incel death enaging in a
dangerous masturbation exercise, while filming a movie.

5 06 2014
P Ray

Remember the show “Kung Fu” starring David Carridine?
He played a taoist monk. He didn’t bother much with women.
But David Carridine died a pathetic incel death enaging in a
dangerous masturbation exercise, while filming a movie.

Sorry to correct you, but Carradine had been married 4 times.
He did bother plenty with women.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191493/Kung-Fu-star-David-Carradine-pictured-bizarre-final-TV-role-drama-broadcast-days-sex-game-death.html

4 06 2014
SunnyVonB

Reading these comments it is obvious why you are all bitter incels. Your hatred of women is palatable, no wonder they want nothing to do with you. Elliot was the perfect example, women were 100% correct to stay as far away as possible from such a hate filled time bomb. But, if you actually bother to read his manifesto or interviews with people that knew him you also realize he never even bothered to speak to women. Glaring at them, throwing lattes on them and trying to shove them off a ledge were the sum of his attempts at social interaction. No wonder he never got laid. (I’ll also point out he was even shunned by his very few male friends due to his rage and narcissism.) He expected beautiful blondes to throw themselves at him for merely looking at them, and when they didn’t he fantasized about torturing them to death as punishment.

Did any of you read Elliot’s ENTIRE manifesto? Not just “parts”? You really need to read it all.

After bothering to actually read the entire manifesto you are commenting upon Id like to know if you, or any of your readers, actually think women were the problem? If so I beg you to check yourself into a psych ward immediately. Elliot’s problem was Elliot. He was a twisted, self obsessed narcissicist who raged because the world didn’t revolve around him and his whims. What grown man throws toddler like tantrums for hours? What grown man rages against the evil of women, then calls his mother crying for consolation? The fact was almost the only people who cared about Elliot were women – his mother, sister, grandmothers. But his total lack of compassion or empathy was truly terrifying.

You rage against women because you think they only want “attractive” guys, when in reality it is you who believe super models should be worshipping at your feet. I’ve seen men horribly disfigured from accidents or from birth defects who have loving wives and girlfriends. It’s almost as if womens’ capacity to love is as deep as your capacity to hate. Men are far more superficial then women when it comes to physical attributes determing their choice of mates. An attractive personality goes further with women than a man’s looks, but none of you would know this because you are ugly and twisted on the inside. You think women aren’t interested because of how you look, but the truth is your hatred and anger are the most effective female repellents on earth. I know you all think women are stupid, but they are smart enough to stay far away from you guys and psychos like Elliot. Dating you would be akin to a Jewish woman dating an ardent Nazi.

I hope one day, rather than blaming 50% of the world’s population for all your woes, you’ll look into the mirror and see the true source of your problems. Your hate and anger are doing nothing but eating you alive and it is a big red flag to all decent humans (women and men) to stay as far away from you as possible.

9 06 2014
survivingincel

the handsome bad boy is also a self obsessed narcissist. This is not a blog about the in-born nature of hypergamy in women as much as the degenerate culture of western society

10 06 2014
Maia

What “handsome bad boys”?! Are you just talking about characters in movies? Do you know that they’re bad boys — do you know definitely that they’re bad people?

11 06 2014
P Ray

Men are far more superficial then women when it comes to physical attributes determing their choice of mates.
Oh, you blind person, stop by a shopping mall someday.
Count the number of women, with men taller than them.
Then, count the number of women, with men shorter than them.

Women are more superficial than men, and will always be.
That’s because, they want what the men have, but need to justify it in such quaint ways like “it’s for the children” and “I have to look out for myself” (funny, when a man uses such arguments, he’s a misogynist).

I look forward to your tripe of “big red flag to all decent humans (women and men) to stay as far away from you as possible.”
As,
When you have skills and deliver results, personality … does not matter.
As people rapidly lose their predilection for “personality” when it comes with a price tag for consultation, that is twice higher 🙂

11 06 2014
Maia

There would be very few men with women taller than them. That’s because shorter women are seen as more desirable — most men are uncomfortable with women taller than them. You seem to be supporting the point that men are superficial.

Women are more superficial than men, and will always be.
That’s because, they want what the men have, but need to justify it in such quaint ways like “it’s for the children” and “I have to look out for myself” (funny, when a man uses such arguments, he’s a misogynist).

Unclear what any of this means.

11 06 2014
P Ray

There would be very few men with women taller than them. That’s because shorter women are seen as more desirable — most men are uncomfortable with women taller than them. You seem to be supporting the point that men are superficial.
Women choose to be with the men they want.
If not it’s called rape.
Please stop being dense, Maia.

11 06 2014
Maia

Yes, I agree. You did not address my point. Please stop falling back on the crutch of calling me “dense” whenever you can’t refute my points. Again, personal insults will get you nowhere.

11 06 2014
P Ray

Please stop falling back on the crutch of calling me “dense” whenever you can’t refute my points.
Please stop acting as if your points carry any weight, and as if you have refuted any … since you haven’t.

There would be very few men with women taller than them. That’s because shorter women are seen as more desirable — most men are uncomfortable with women taller than them. You seem to be supporting the point that men are superficial.
Here’s the refutation, wait for it:
When women are not with the guy they want to be with, but instead another guy(and obviously against their will), there’s all sorts of ways they can show their displeasure, e.g. getting in touch with the police.
Women CHOOSE who to be with, they’re not unconscious vegetables picking any random guy – if they were, there would not be so many incels. Along with the higher % of STDs among women.

If you’d like to talk about “points being addressed”, why don’t you make one in the first place, THAT MAKES SENSE?

11 06 2014
Maia

I have. Whether or not I have “refuted” your points successfully is subjective, but I have at least responded to every. single. point that you have made. You, on the other hand, often leave a lot of my points or questions unanswered, or change the topic.

Okay, yes, women are able to choose whom to date and have sex with (thank goodness). What is your point? Could you please connect this to how women are supposedly more superficial than men?

Is your point that because women can choose their partners, they are superficial? Can men NOT choose their partners (= incel) and are therefore NOT superficial? I’m not trying to Straw Man you, I am trying to string your isolated statements into some kind of argument that makes sense. Is this what you are saying?

3 07 2014
P Ray

Okay, yes, women are able to choose whom to date and have sex with (thank goodness). What is your point? Could you please connect this to how women are supposedly more superficial than men?
1. Saying that their attraction is not primarily about looks (until those women lose theirs, it is)
2. It’s so amazing how they become more “spiritual” when they’re flat broke. I guess they go to God when the Devil won’t have anything more to do with them.

Is your point that because women can choose their partners, they are superficial? Can men NOT choose their partners (= incel) and are therefore NOT superficial? I’m not trying to Straw Man you, I am trying to string your isolated statements into some kind of argument that makes sense. Is this what you are saying?
Men’s choices in partners work off of a matrix:
1. Is she attracted to him?
2. How much of a hold does her family have?
Point 2 is interesting because, while many families don’t know or don’t care when their daughter is banging around at university or high school, it suddenly becomes a concern when the guy she’s with is older.
This can mean a fatal confrontation for the guy, which is why, I shall be watching out for runaways who are grateful.
(Remember, many men want love and commitment – just not from women jaded by relationships or aged ones). Also, they’re probably more likely to value the effort a man puts into work AND the little things in life (regular women’s expectations rise with her relationships).

3 07 2014
Maia

Saying that their attraction is not primarily about looks
But are you saying that this is not true for men? If not, then how are women MORE superficial than men? Are not both genders equally superficial because humans are just superficial?

It’s so amazing how they become more “spiritual”
Wait, what? Why are we suddenly talking about spirituality?

(Remember, many men want love and commitment – just not from women jaded by relationships or aged ones). Also, they’re probably more likely to value the effort a man puts into work AND the little things in life (regular women’s expectations rise with her relationships).
Do you think that the reverse is true as well? That is, do you think that younger men are more likely to value the effort woman puts into work and the little things in life? I mean, therefore, I should be trying to date an eighteen-year-old man, right? I don’t want him to have previous baggage, or be jaded or cynical, or have a negative attitude towards women.

Also, again with the “aged” things. You said that, as you were a virgin, you demanded that your partner be one as well. Would you consider dating someone your age who was also a virgin, or will only very young women do?

I shall be watching out for runaways who are grateful
This strikes me as sort of creepy language… It implies that a) you’re not the kind of person anyone would want their daughter associating with (why not?), and b) that you don’t expect anyone to fall in love with you or you with them, but that you’ll take advantage of someone’s “gratitude.” I’m sorry if I’m reading too far into that, but that’s what that sounds like to me — and a relationship built on gratitude, and not mutual respect or admiration, is a relationship built on a shaky foundation.

4 07 2014
P Ray

Also, again with the “aged” things. You said that, as you were a virgin, you demanded that your partner be one as well. Would you consider dating someone your age who was also a virgin, or will only very young women do?
She has to prove it, it seems every woman with a torn hymen is a olympic level athlete when it comes time to marry.
Also, don’t forget that hymen restoration surgery exists, accessible to women with money.
Most families wouldn’t fund that.
Most single women with money knowing they could cash in on some naive incel, WOULD.

This strikes me as sort of creepy language… It implies that a) you’re not the kind of person anyone would want their daughter associating with (why not?), and b) that you don’t expect anyone to fall in love with you or you with them, but that you’ll take advantage of someone’s “gratitude.” I’m sorry if I’m reading too far into that, but that’s what that sounds like to me — and a relationship built on gratitude, and not mutual respect or admiration, is a relationship built on a shaky foundation.
I’m not the UN, here to address women and their issues. I’m here to make the best situation, for myself. We are where we are now, because men appease women, without asking for payback. And other men enforce this appeasement.
P.S. Women are creepy, they want stuff for free and especially lifetime alimony if they can wing it.
I told you we would not agree, and it has come full circle.

5 07 2014
Maia

She has to prove it, it seems every woman with a torn hymen is a olympic level athlete when it comes time to marry.
Also, don’t forget that hymen restoration surgery exists, accessible to women with money.
Most families wouldn’t fund that.
Most single women with money knowing they could cash in on some naive incel, WOULD.

Oh, P Ray. Okay. I’m not trying to be rude here, but I owe it to you to be honest. Think about what you just said for a second. This. Is. Crazy. WHO would ever do this?! So basically you’re telling me that most women are so evil, so depraved, that they would actually go through surgery in order to trick their future husband so that they could cash in (if they had money, why would they need to do that in the first place)?

Look, I’m really not trying to be rude, but look at that picture for a moment. The picture you have painted of women is of superficial sociopaths whose sole purpose in life seems to be to trick and cheat men in order to get what they want. Does this not somewhat remind you of German caricatures of Jews, or of American caricatures of African slaves? Your portrait is so extreme in its portrayal of women’s evil that you must admit that it is just that — a caricature.

I came here in the first place because I was curious about incel, having figured that ER was probably not representative of the whole group (something you would do well that start doing yourself — you often use “feminists” and “women” interchangeably, as though all American women are feminists, and you also refer to “feminists” as a monolithic group, as though there are not extreme variations of opinion). Unlike many women, who immediately began flaming these blogs, I tried to keep an open mind. I never insulted you, or tried to tell you what was wrong with you — I merely asked questions, and then offered counter-evidence when I thought it was appropriate. I think that we, as human beings, can learn a lot from people with whom we disagree, and that these exchanges can be eye-opening. I had hoped to find, in the incel community, views that were merely misunderstood — views that were not like ER’s. However, if what you have just said is representative of incel — and of course, it might not be — it is clear that incel is a hate group. A hate group is a group that sees any other group as inherently evil. You have portrayed women as superficial to a fault, ruthless, deceitful, and going comic-book-evil-character waaaay out of their way in order to harm you. If you see any group as a collection of negative traits, with no good qualities, then you hate them. Period.

You call yourself “incel” in order to make yourself appear a victim, but that’s actually rather disingenuous since a) your standards are very specific and ridiculously high (like you said to me when I suggested that I only date younger men: “you can always try and see where that gets you” — given that you’re a virgin, I’m guessing not far), and b) nobody wants to date someone who thinks that they’re inherently evil. Think about this for a moment: what is the common denominator between all men who are incel? Is it that they’re poor? No, that’s not it — ER was wealthy, and so are you (apparently), so it’s not that women don’t like them because women only care about money. Is it that they’re ugly? ER was actually quite handsome. Social skills? Maybe — I haven’t met any in person (well, I have met male and female virgins who are my age, but they don’t identify as incel). Here’s the common denominator: All incels hate women.

(Again, hate: only attributing negative qualities to, only attributing negative motives to, etc.)

Perhaps you believe that men who are incels hate women because they are incel. This may be true, but I would like to suggest to you a reversal of that causation: Perhaps men who are incels are incels because they hate women. Good god, if someone approached me and I began to get a sense of what they thought of “my kind,” I would flee as quickly as possible.

You have said before that you demand a young virgin, and that what you have to offer in return is money. Perhaps this will work. This is a crazy world, and people do all sorts of stuff — kill their brothers, wreck their friendships — for money every day. But also beware that, using this strategy, you will necessarily end up dating someone who confirms all of your worst fears about women: you will end up with the kind of person who is so mercenary, who is so superficial, that she is willing to enter into a money-for-beauty kind of agreement. You will not end up with someone you just click with, who shares you love of Bach and Beckett and long walks on the beach or whatever — you will end up with the worst kind of person. Yes, horrible women exist. But not all women are horrible, and by looking for a money-for-beauty exchange, you are explicitly searching for the worst of them.

If a man is attractive to a woman, his faults don’t count; if a man is NOT attractive to a woman, his virtues don’t count.
THIS IS NOT TRUE
THIS IS NOT TRUE
THIS IS NOT TRUE
THIS IS NOT TRUE

What if we reversed this? “If a woman is attractive to a man, her faults don’t count; if a woman is NOT attractive to a woman, her virtues don’t count.” Would you agree with this?!

5 07 2014
Maia

We are where we are now, because men appease women, without asking for payback. And other men enforce this appeasement.
P.S. Women are creepy, they want stuff for free and especially lifetime alimony if they can wing it.

…what are you even TALKING about?

4 07 2014
P Ray

Do you think that the reverse is true as well? That is, do you think that younger men are more likely to value the effort woman puts into work and the little things in life? I mean, therefore, I should be trying to date an eighteen-year-old man, right? I don’t want him to have previous baggage, or be jaded or cynical, or have a negative attitude towards women.
You can always try and see where that gets you :whistle:

I don’t want him to have previous baggage, or be jaded or cynical, or have a negative attitude towards women.
If a man is attractive to a woman, his faults don’t count; if a man is NOT attractive to a woman, his virtues don’t count.

5 07 2014
Maia

You can always try and see where that gets you :whistle:
…..you don’t….you really don’t see the hypocrisy in that? Isn’t that what I could very well say to you for wanting that? Don’t you see how entitled that attitude in general is?

6 07 2014
P Ray

Look, I’m really not trying to be rude, but look at that picture for a moment. The picture you have painted of women is of superficial sociopaths whose sole purpose in life seems to be to trick and cheat men in order to get what they want. Does this not somewhat remind you of German caricatures of Jews, or of American caricatures of African slaves? Your portrait is so extreme in its portrayal of women’s evil that you must admit that it is just that — a caricature.
WRONG.
The picture I’ve painted, IS OF WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD MANY RELATIONSHIPS IN THE PAST, AND NOW WANT TO CASH OUT
Please stop moronically jumping from step A to Z, instead of going through B up to Y FIRST.

You call yourself “incel” in order to make yourself appear a victim, but that’s actually rather disingenuous since a) your standards are very specific and ridiculously high
A man without previous relationships, to your mind, he’s only entitled to a former STD ridden slut? That’s interesting, have you let others know of your opinion?

Here’s the common denominator: All incels hate women.
All incels hate women who want to cash out on them by badgering them that they have ridiculous standards when said women only “see” those incels when it’s time to cash out. FIXED THAT FOR YOU, NO CHARGE

What if we reversed this? “If a woman is attractive to a man, her faults don’t count; if a woman is NOT attractive to a woman, her virtues don’t count.” Would you agree with this?!
I’d agree with that BUT what lesbians do in their own time is their own business.

I like the part when you repeat “THAT IS NOT TRUE”, feminist programming breaks down when they realise more men won’t put up or finance their BS.
Especially men with the skill to run their own show 🙂

6 07 2014
Maia

The picture I’ve painted, IS OF WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD MANY RELATIONSHIPS IN THE PAST, AND NOW WANT TO CASH OUT
Not what you said — you said “most single women.”

A man without previous relationships, to your mind, he’s only entitled to a former STD ridden slut?
Wait, seriously, there’s no middle ground between “virgin” and “STD-ridden slut”? Non-virgin ≠ STD-ridden slut. Please stop jumping around illogically.

For the millionth time, I would appreciate it if your responses weren’t hyperemotional, condescending, and extreme.

I like the part when you repeat “THAT IS NOT TRUE”, feminist programming breaks down when they realise more men won’t put up or finance their BS.
I had to repeat myself because you don’t listen. You don’t listen when I ask you to back up your statements. You can’t keep getting away with making staggeringly large generalizations that have nothing to back them up.

6 07 2014
P Ray

Oh, P Ray. Okay. I’m not trying to be rude here, but I owe it to you to be honest. Think about what you just said for a second. This. Is. Crazy. WHO would ever do this?! So basically you’re telling me that most women are so evil, so depraved, that they would actually go through surgery in order to trick their future husband so that they could cash in (if they had money, why would they need to do that in the first place)?
Somebody is either lying or doesn’t understand the phrase “return on investment”.

If you could do an operation that assured you of catching the eye of a guy worth at least a cool million, and that operation would only cost you $2,000, would you do it?
That is a return of 500 times your investment.
Only robbery, drug-dealing and human slavery offer comparative returns.

That is why it’s perfectly understandable that a woman could go through with that hymen-restoration operation, if she, after a lifetime of consuming cock, wanted to get her big break

Oh ya, every woman who had her hymen broken before marriage, was raped, did horse training, was born without it or was just playing with sex toys.
Did I cover all the lies?

6 07 2014
Maia

If you could do an operation that assured you of catching the eye of a guy worth at least a cool million, and that operation would only cost you $2,000, would you do it?

…my god, no. Of course not. And I believe that few people would — as many people as would commit robbery, drug-dealing, or human slavery.

6 07 2014
P Ray

Wait, seriously, there’s no middle ground between “virgin” and “STD-ridden slut”? Non-virgin ≠ STD-ridden slut. Please stop jumping around illogically.
You know, there is this campaign called “Herpes is Normal”?
Now, to make things funnier, did you know that universities only accept international/foreign students, which have a clean bill of health, meaning no herpes or other STDs?
Why would they do that, if “Herpes is Normal?”

For the millionth time, I would appreciate it if your responses weren’t hyperemotional, condescending, and extreme.
So, making the choice about your life partner is to be done frivolously then?

I had to repeat myself because you don’t listen. You don’t listen when I ask you to back up your statements. You can’t keep getting away with making staggeringly large generalizations that have nothing to back them up.
Citations are the domain of the evil patriarchy. Remember? After all, feminists are bonded to the deep knowing of the universe.

6 07 2014
Maia

Why would they do that, if “Herpes is Normal?”
Herpes is NOT normal! But if you’ve had two five-year relationships and you’ve had sex with two different people (the people in those relationships) you are
– NOT a virgin
– NOT an “STD-ridden slut”
Why is it so hard for you to grasp this?

So, making the choice about your life partner is to be done frivolously then?
No, of course not! But your messages to me are often personally insulting or make personal assumptions.

Citations are the domain of the evil patriarchy. Remember? After all, feminists are bonded to the deep knowing of the universe.
Oh, come now. Seriously, though: you should start using more citations, or at least personal anecdotes.

6 07 2014
P Ray

…my god, no. Of course not. And I believe that few people would — as many people as would commit robbery, drug-dealing, or human slavery.
When people go through many relationships where sex is the norm, and then realise they have no commitment to show for it, their evil blossoms and they come up with interesting ways to get compensation (from the final guy) for their previous bad decisions (that he was not a part of).

This is why, I don’t bother interacting with women with a past.
TOO RISKY, TOO GOOD AT LYING.

6 07 2014
Maia

Question: Do you believe that women are inherently better liars then men?

6 07 2014
P Ray

Oh, come now. Seriously, though: you should start using more citations, or at least personal anecdotes.
Fat slut offers sex to me. I refuse.
Some years later, she is married, and is a Catholic school teacher preaching morality.

Girl meets a friend of mine for a night out. YEARS LATER, she files a rape charge against him.

Friend I know, has a girlfriend. She wants to meet him to arrange an abortion for the child she is carrying from sex with someone else in short, she didn’t have sex with him over a certain period, then got pregnant with somebody else’s child THEN proceeds to abort. omgwtfbbq.

Have I melted your mind enough? Please let me know if you require more.

6 07 2014
Maia

Fat slut offers sex to me. I refuse.
Some years later, she is married, and is a Catholic school teacher preaching morality.

Many people throughout history (even in the Bible!) have joined the Church after having renounced their former lives: men as well as women. There are many famous priests and pastors these days who talk about how they were drug dealers or whatever, and then they turned their lives around. Just because someone wanted to have sex once doesn’t mean that they are an “immoral” person forever, right? Especially in the Catholic Church, where redemption and forgiveness are taught. Jesus Christ chose to associate with tax collectors and prostitutes, remember?

6 07 2014
P Ray

Do you believe that women are inherently better liars then men?
When they’ve had enough heartbreak sure.

And to answer when have they had enough heartbreak?
When the first guy they could genuinely love, was the guy with whom it didn’t work. In other words, their first relationship involving sex.

Because, many men don’t mean anything to women, until they’ve had the chance to have sex with them.
This is why, women can very easily write off sexless geeks, but keep having the hots for the alpha stud that they chose to have sex with, get pregnant and possibly an abortion from (along with maybe STDs, mental/financial issues resulting from the breakup).

6 07 2014
Maia

Interesting theories, P Ray.

many men don’t mean anything to women, until they’ve had the chance to have sex with them.
This is why, women can very easily write off sexless geeks, but keep having the hots for the alpha stud

It seems to me that all you’re accusing women of is wanting to have sex with more physically-attractive people versus not physically-attractive people. Is that right? If so, doesn’t that seem rather hypocritical — do men not try to have sex with physically-attractive women?

And, of course, once again, you generalize. I have never been the type to go for the “alpha stud.” Both of my two serious boyfriends have been medically-overweight intellectuals.

It just — your saying “men don’t mean anything to women,” I mean, do you think of women as these somehow subhuman beings who are incapable of falling in love? In my experience, women don’t go for either “alpha studs” or “nice guys” or whatever — they go for people whose interests and senses of humor match their own. If you love literature, you will likely fall for a man who also loves literature.

6 07 2014
P Ray

Jesus Christ chose to associate with tax collectors and prostitutes, remember?
Do you know if he was a virgin?
Because I know for sure that from what I can read, if I understand right, that his human father Joseph was cuckolded.

6 07 2014
Maia

God: the ultimate alpha.

6 07 2014
P Ray

Just because someone wanted to have sex once doesn’t mean that they are an “immoral” person forever, right?
How much money would an average woman make, if every relationship they had had an invisible money counter that ticked off for every guy she had sex with until her husband?
Remember, for most average guys, they have very few sex partners. So a small pool of men, are being chosen by most women for the sex.
That is how women get more STDs than men, by sharing “Patient zero”.

Maybe women are getting annoyed at prostitutes because they allow incels to have sex without requiring to be married,
and maybe they’re annoyed at incels because they think he needs to hand over half his money before he gets any sex?

If a woman is not going to be honest about the amount of sex partners she’s had, what else is she not going to be honest about?
After all, women want to be seen as desirable, but not slutty, yet capable of attracting another man so that the last guy knows he can be replaced.
It’s a funny condition, to be sure.

6 07 2014
P Ray

It just — your saying “men don’t mean anything to women,” I mean, do you think of women as these somehow subhuman beings who are incapable of falling in love? In my experience, women don’t go for either “alpha studs” or “nice guys” or whatever — they go for people whose interests and senses of humor match their own. If you love literature, you will likely fall for a man who also loves literature.
I know what you mean, and it’s sad.
Most women don’t have what it takes to be in STEM.
But I suppose they can’t help it, since they can get by on their looks (and if most women can either have lovers or adultery with others, that must mean that some guys, are “not married but not sexless either”), or get into STEM, then quickly try to jump into a management position where their flaws can’t be uncovered.
But if that’s the case, why do you have “lovely women who fall in with a bad crowd, and get killed by her violent alpha boyfriend”?
Aren’t women paragons of virtue, soiled by layabout men?

But on the other hand, 2 people who have very similar intellectual profiles, coming together they usually create an autistic child.
All I’m asking for is a beauty. Don’t you want to stop autism?
Think about the children, Maia. Don’t you want to stop inceldom?

6 07 2014
Maia

So you believe that it is just totally fucking impossible that a woman could actually be good at STEM, period.

Also, are you saying that STEM is your only interest? Really? You don’t like tennis, or hiking, or Russian, or there’s really no interest you have through which you could potentially meet someone who also likes that?

Aren’t women paragons of virtue, soiled by layabout men?
Nope! Women are definitely NOT paragons of virtue. Women are human beings, which means that they are good and kinda good and neutral and kinda bad and bad. Again, I’d estimate about 50% of horrible people are probably women!

But on the other hand, 2 people who have very similar intellectual profiles, coming together they usually create an autistic child.
All I’m asking for is a beauty. Don’t you want to stop autism?
Think about the children, Maia. Don’t you want to stop inceldom?

Hahahahaha, good point. (On a serious note, though, I actually read this Times article once that reported that those with Asperger’s have the happiest marriages to others with Asperger’s.)

Also — re: “all I’m asking for is a beauty.” Seeeeee, P Ray, this is why I find it frustrating when you accuse women of being superficial / say “they only want the sex alpha men with sex physical attractiveness they hate nerds!!!1111!!!” because

a) since women are people, not all women are the same. Some are superficial, some are not. Some are nice, some are mean. Some are smart. Some like music. Some prefer cuisine.
b) You’re the one here who’s looking for “a beauty”! You want youth and beauty, period — you don’t seem to care about intelligence, talents, interests, et cetera. You would never give a second look to the ugly, brilliant girl in the engineering lab. C’mon, you know that that’s hypocritical.

6 07 2014
P Ray

Whoops, I forgot to add a woman can be a “virgin” (in quotes), as long as she only does anal, gives blowjobs and handjobs. Keep the hymen intact, all right …

Yeah, that’s why I say that nearest to the age of consent, they are actual virgins, and not “virgins”.

That’s why a woman can be a “virgin” and still be a terrible prospect for marriage.

6 07 2014
Maia

I guess it just confuses me that to you a woman giving a blowjob is, like, “ruined”? My first serious boyfriend, who is the first out of the two people I’ve had sex with (the second being my current boyfriend), had received blowjobs before, from two different girls. I had never given one. Thus, he had more experience than me. But I didn’t think he was “ruined,” and that didn’t make me uncomfortable. I just understood that he had dated and loved people before he met me.

6 07 2014
P Ray

Also — re: “all I’m asking for is a beauty.” Seeeeee, P Ray, this is why I find it frustrating when you accuse women of being superficial / say “they only want the sex alpha men with sex physical attractiveness they hate nerds!!!1111!!!” because
At a young age, almost all women are beautiful.
Plus, they’re less capable liars.
Why should a good man be with a bad woman?

You want youth and beauty, period — you don’t seem to care about intelligence, talents, interests, et cetera. You would never give a second look to the ugly, brilliant girl in the engineering lab. C’mon, you know that that’s hypocritical.
If you had said something about the ugly, brilliant, slut girl in the engineering lab, that would have been believable.
Because that is what we had plenty of, the ones hopping from bed to bed, saying “all men are bastards”(It’s surprising that all those bastards happened to be the kind of men OTHER girls wanted to … so not only were they ugly, they wouldn’t give “guys in their league” a chance – sound familiar?).
So, no.
Being ugly, doesn’t make a girl loyal … and neither does it make her discerning about who she CHOOSES to be in a “(drunk, 1-day) relationship” with.

11 07 2014
Maia

Why should a good man be with a bad woman?
That’s not what I said. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of your calling women superficial when you are the one who says that you will only accept young, beautiful women.

Being ugly, doesn’t make a girl loyal
I never said it did. I was just pointing out that you are being hypocritical.

6 07 2014
P Ray

You don’t like tennis, or hiking, or Russian, or there’s really no interest you have through which you could potentially meet someone who also likes that?
Women who are interested in a guy, develop their interests in parallel with him. Funny that.
In other words, it’s amazing how many women, who hate videogames, suddenly want to play World of Warcraft when “Superman”Henry Cavill is a gamer.

11 07 2014
Maia

…are you implying that women have NO interests?

11 07 2014
Maia

Also, men do that too! I have friends who feigned an interest in theater in order to be in the school play with the girl they liked, or pretended to be into yoga. I don’t understand what the point is that you’re making.

6 07 2014
P Ray

So you believe that it is just totally fucking impossible that a woman could actually be good at STEM, period.
That creature is cloaked in so much BS and are such a low percentage of actual “hands-on” workers producing quality product or attempting any kind of real innovation, that it might as well not exist BUT there are plenty of wannabes who in some way contribute to being the female parent of an autistic kid.
Maybe that’s karma/God’s payback for trying to be what they’re not.

But a few good ones exist. Just very few.
The rest just fill the corporate diversity quotas, so that their managers can collect a hefty pay AND look attractive to the “equal” women only looking at a guy with a larger paycheque, haha!

11 07 2014
P Ray

Also, men do that too! I have friends who feigned an interest in theater in order to be in the school play with the girl they liked, or pretended to be into yoga. I don’t understand what the point is that you’re making.
Yes, it’s wrong for a man the woman doesn’t find attractive, to have interests (feigned or not) in what she’s interested in.
Because everyone knows men and women stay the same forever throughout life.

11 07 2014
Maia

AHHHH I’m trying to say that it’s NOT wrong!!!! That was my counter to YOUR saying it was wrong that some women sometimes feign interests!!!! So we agree!

11 07 2014
Maia

Here are your two comments, juxtaposed:

Women who are interested in a guy, develop their interests in parallel with him. Funny that.
In other words, it’s amazing how many women, who hate videogames, suddenly want to play World of Warcraft when “Superman”Henry Cavill is a gamer.</I.

Yes, it’s wrong for a man the woman doesn’t find attractive, to have interests (feigned or not) in what she’s interested in.
Because everyone knows men and women stay the same forever throughout life.

lol

11 07 2014
P Ray

Both of my two serious boyfriends have been medically-overweight intellectuals.
Interesting choice of words and boyfriends.
Did you know women hook up with guys on the cusp of a serious moneymaking career? That way they get a “return on their investment”. Did those guys meet hotter nurses?
I’m more interested to know about your “not-serious” boyfriends.
You know, the ones who got sex for free, without requiring a relationship?

11 07 2014
Maia

My “non-serious” boyfriends:

The first was named Thomas; we dated in eighth grade. He was thirteen and I was twelve. We talked a lot on the phone and held hands and told all our friends that we were boyfriend and girlfriend. We never even kissed.

The second was named James; we dated in tenth grade for two months. We kissed; that was all. Then we broke up and remained friends. We didn’t really know what we were doing.

I don’t consider either of those “serious” because neither of us was really in love — we were figuring everything out. Only when I got to college did I have my first serious relationship, which entailed love, and sex, and visiting each other’s families for holidays, etc.

I have only had sex with the two people I’ve dated seriously. The first person I dated seriously, during college, I dated for three and a half years. My current boyfriend and I have been dating for about two years and currently live together.

11 07 2014
P Ray

But also beware that, using this strategy, you will necessarily end up dating someone who confirms all of your worst fears about women: you will end up with the kind of person who is so mercenary, who is so superficial, that she is willing to enter into a money-for-beauty kind of agreement. You will not end up with someone you just click with, who shares you love of Bach and Beckett and long walks on the beach or whatever — you will end up with the worst kind of person. Yes, horrible women exist. But not all women are horrible, and by looking for a money-for-beauty exchange, you are explicitly searching for the worst of them.
Men are always “selecting for the worst kind of women”, because it is almost always MEN PAYING THE COST OF DIVORCE OR PAYING THE COST OF THE WIFE’S DEMANDS.
Stupid rebuttal is stupid.

Also, here’s a spicy quote form “dontmarry.wordpress.com” , that I think is very true:
“[In response to a 36-year-old man considering marriage]: Never get married. You’re finally at
the age where life starts getting really good: You can date a girl half your age and it’s
LEGAL!!!
From my experience, the 10-15 years age difference in a “more sophisticated” woman hasn’t made
any difference in anything. Women are now perpetual teenagers who never grow up, so you may
as well get the body that matches the mind.”

11 07 2014
Maia

MEN PAYING THE COST OF DIVORCE OR PAYING THE COST OF THE WIFE’S DEMANDS
Ugh, that’s just not true. Alimony is given to the person who was supported financially by the marriage. 40% of American households now have women as their primary breadwinners. Therefore, alimony CANNOT be awarded to almost half of American women getting divorces. In fact, some men have begun to be awarded alimony! Look it up.

Also, I really don’t understand your reasoning. Men select women who are only interested in money because “men end up paying the cost of divorce”? Can you explain this, please?

11 07 2014
P Ray

In fact, some men have begun to be awarded alimony! Look it up.

Also, I really don’t understand your reasoning. Men select women who are only interested in money because “men end up paying the cost of divorce”? Can you explain this, please?
So some men getting alimony = all men getting alimony?
Your feminism is showing.

Guess what? Many of the women who want marriage, want marriage from the guy that has the dough, since those women long ago gave up on having a relationship based on love.
Hence, why
1) they want the guy to propose (the weaker party initiates the interaction,
2) the prevailing literature is “a man must be worthy of a woman”.

You’re turning this into an object lesson why men must be very careful about any interaction with women who harbor interests in feminism.

11 07 2014
Maia

So some men getting alimony = all men getting alimony?
Again, not what I said — stop Straw Manning me. I actually specifically said “some.” (Funny, you’re the one usually making the “some = all” fallacy.)

Many of the women who want marriage, want marriage from the guy that has the dough, since those women long ago gave up on having a relationship based on love
It is very clever of you to keep making assertions that are impossible to prove or disprove! How on earth could you possibly back this up? (Also, how can you explain that 40% of American women are the main breadwinners for their family? Do you really think that women are looking for financial security first and foremost when they marry? Actual statistics — I know, not your favorite — say otherwise.)

11 07 2014
P Ray

P.S. Women have a problem understanding genetics:
Short women with tall men = tall daughters (good luck getting married to taller guys, their numbers are dwindling all the time) + tall men die earlier 🙂 (enjoy trying to catch some incel when you’re 60 🙂 )
Short men with tall women = tall sons.
I would cite this, but it’s been many years since I wrote that article 🙂

11 07 2014
Maia

Yes, this is logically true. However, wouldn’t you agree that in Western culture tall men are unfairly seen as more attractive, and that there is a stigma attached to being a short man, given our illogical standards of beauty and attractiveness?

11 07 2014
P Ray

However, wouldn’t you agree that in Western culture tall men are unfairly seen as more attractive, and that there is a stigma attached to being a short man, given our illogical standards of beauty and attractiveness?
Haha, that applies to all cultures. Which is why the rate of innovation is slowing.
Women value the tingle of the alpha, over the engineer.
Go get Mr. Alpha to fix your car then … 🙂
On the other hand, a woman who isn’t confident enough to date a man who has his sh*t together, is better replaced by a girl with the ability to imagine a future with no rude surprises.
Jaded women produce broken relationships … since women choose who to be in a relationship with, and when to leave (“70% of all divorces are initiated by the woman” – google that).
“Whose fault is divorce? The cold statistical answer is: women.”

11 07 2014
P Ray

(Also, how can you explain that 40% of American women are the main breadwinners for their family? Do you really think that women are looking for financial security first and foremost when they marry? Actual statistics — I know, not your favorite — say otherwise.)
Thanks for that, that means 60% of American men are the breadwinners for their family.
When will women step up to be equal, Maia? Or is it only when it comes to being managers and not ditch-diggers?

11 07 2014
Maia

I think they’re on their way! You have to admit that 40% is pretty astonishing given that women have entered the workforce relatively recently, and also given that men are still paid higher wages than women for doing the same jobs (not to mention that there are more men in higher positions than women, etc.). So, I think that number is actually pretty good. You’re right: it’s still not 50%, but hopefully it will be soon. It’s not fair for men to have to support women financially, and that is slowly ending.

11 07 2014
P Ray

P.S. How many of those “40% of women who are breadwinners in the American family”
are on welfare?
It’s amazing how strong and independent women are, when money is made available to them for free 🙂

11 07 2014
Maia

That accusation is condescending and also not grounded in fact. It’s unfair of you to make insinuations like that when you can’t back them up. The burden is on YOU to prove that.

11 07 2014
P Ray

You have to admit that 40% is pretty astonishing given that women have entered the workforce relatively recently, and also given that men are still paid higher wages than women for doing the same jobs (not to mention that there are more men in higher positions than women, etc.
I know what you mean, it’s amazing that with women being paid less than men, a company hasn’t been set up that is all women, and undercuts all male competition and gains the lion’s share with lower prices, eh? /sarcasm
For me, I’m just wondering when more women go into dirty, dangerous and demeaning jobs just like men do.
Because, when they die, legislation will be set up to make those jobs safer.
(Think about that) 🙂

11 07 2014
Maia

I totally agree that it is unfair that the more dirty and dangerous jobs are typically given only to men. That is discrimination against men. You’re right.

However, it is true that the highest-paying and most powerful jobs are also typically given only to men.

Thus, men have both the worst and the best jobs, neither of which is fair.

Here is an article that you might find interesting. It details the most important ways in which men are discriminated against in today’s world: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/07/men-gender-divide-feminism

I have never denied any of these, and I think that all of these are horrible and outrageous. I very much agree with this statement from the article:

But justice isn’t a relative concept. If it were, we could suggest we should care less about racism against black people just because Asian people in this country are more likely to be victims of racially-motivated hate crime.

Obviously that’s nonsense. But so might be ignoring issues that affect men more severely than women just because women, overall, have it worse.

11 07 2014
P Ray

That accusation is condescending and also not grounded in fact. It’s unfair of you to make insinuations like that when you can’t back them up. The burden is on YOU to prove that.
How many homeless men do you see on the street?
How many homeless women do you see on the street?

How many men’s shelters are there?
How many women’s shelters are there?

Again, I see the feminism is strong in you, Maia.
It may be a detriment to you in the future, when the lives and future of males you care about, are in the balance 🙂

11 07 2014
Maia

It’s very, very unclear to me how your questions are related to the subject “are the women who are the primary breadwinners for their family on welfare?”

11 07 2014
P Ray

It’s very, very unclear to me how your questions are related to the subject “are the women who are the primary breadwinners for their family on welfare?”
You say, women are paid less than men for the same job.
So, they (women who are primary breadwinners) are either paying less to maintain their family,
or
are getting assistance to do so.
Therefore, it stands to reason that they would be more homeless women, since women are paid less, and can therefore AFFORD less.
Durrr…
that’s why, it’s so very interesting why there are so few homeless women, but so many more homeless men.
Right? I mean, you do see the logic, right?

11 07 2014
Maia

Oh, I see. The problem with that argument is this: homeless people typically aren’t homeless because their job doesn’t pay them enough. Homeless people become homeless for some other reason: a horrible tragedy, or mental illness (one reason why there are more homeless men than homeless women is because men are far, far more likely to have PTSD from war — another injustice). So it’s not like “oh people who get paid less are more likely to be homeless.”

The other problem with the argument is that the worlds of blue collar and white collar jobs are very different. Men typically get paid more than women for doing the same job, and this disparity only increases as the pay becomes greater (i.e., as the job becomes more “white collar”). For example, a male janitor and a female janitor are actually probably paid the same amount, but a male head editor of a newspaper is probably paid more than a female head editor of a newspaper. (See the recent NYT for a real-world example.) So this disparity actually doesn’t affect the very poor that much, and would not lead to there being “more homeless women.”

11 07 2014
Maia

Wow, I just found out that 33% of homeless men are veterans! I knew it was a major contributor, but I didn’t know it was that high. That is so tragic and abhorrent. As though these men hadn’t been through hell already.

Also of interest — “Homeless men report alcohol problems at more than twice the rate reported by women (46% versus 22% for women), and other drug problems at a rate half again as high (30% versus 20% for women). … Because homeless men are more likely to have uncontrolled alcohol or drug problems than their female counterparts, they are more frequently excluded from emergency shelters, which often require abstinence as a condition for admission.” I wonder why that is — perhaps because homeless women are more likely than homeless men to have children with them?

11 07 2014
P Ray

In the current economy, I would amend your statement:
“However, it is true that the fewhighest-paying and most powerful jobs are also typically given only to men.”
“Thus, men have both the common worst and the few best jobs, neither of which is fair.”

Because the fact is, the worst jobs will outnumber the best jobs. That’s logic and scarcity at work! Amazing how that works out, people pay for specialist skills HOWEVER specialists who don’t develop their own business are sunk if they get fired and “companies don’t want to pay experienced people or put in any training” as in this global financial crisis.

Lots of people, who require special equipment or licensing to work(accountancy, law, engineering), are going jobless BUT
on the other hand, when they picked a major that required a big firm behind it, that’s always a risk.

11 07 2014
P Ray

Wow, I just found out that 33% of homeless men are veterans! I knew it was a major contributor, but I didn’t know it was that high. That is so tragic and abhorrent. As though these men hadn’t been through hell already.
They train those people for a purpose, very few to no civilian skills, get them in with false promises, then shit on them after.
Funny thing is, people keep believing them
The thing about hope and change, is that it’s easy to have the first, and the second is something you laugh about (conscientious objectors have a tonne of info about the recruitment lies). As the late George Carlin said “It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it”

3 03 2015
P Ray

Even the shy girl, may have been a freak to an alpha previously.
Maybe some of the women wearing white at weddings are virgins … that previously took it up the ass.

Working for someone else means being a sucker.
Women scheme to get married to “suckers”(really, a guy that is unaware or bluepilled), but don’t like BEING married to one.

Remember, she’s going to get half if he cheats …
and she gets half is SHE cheats.

Videogames, making money and using it as leverage. That’s what really works.

4 06 2014
A woman

As a white “western” woman dating an Asian man who is small in stature (and I’ve got a lot of options when it comes to partners, but he’s always my first and only choice) I can honestly tell you that you desperately need to remove your head from your ass .

The reason I love him, commit to him, sleep with him and brag about him whenever I get the chance is because he is an amazing person. It’s not how he looks, it’s not about his academic standing or sexual prowess, he’s not super fucking manly, but he’s one of the most self aware, mature and hard working individuals I know. In all your numerous complaints you strike me as the kind of psychologically weak individual who complains too much and takes too little action (proactivity and drive are not alpha traits, they are the traits of any successful human being), socially awkward, shallow, entitled, bigoted, and unaccountable. Why the fuck would anyone want to get involved with that?

You want to fix your “girl problem”? Examine yourself and stop projecting your shortcomings onto those you can’t function with.

Real women with a capacity to love you (if that’s really what you want) will not even feel inclined to approach or even interact with you with the prospect of your perceived “debt of kindness” looming over their heads. When I buy a friend or new acquaintance a drink, I buy them a drink because I want to have a good time with them and show them that they’re important enough to me that I’d spend a few bucks on them. I’m not expecting anything more than good company and conversation, and if you can make a woman feel that way and actually deliver on a lack of conditions/expectations I promise a higher rate of interaction and a higher rate of developed relationships. Women will avoid men with obvious expectations of sexual favors in social situations, because honestly who likes being roped into contracts and commitments without having ample time to read over the fine print and some sort of mutual benefit? Aside from the prostitutes you keep mentioning, many women, the women who frustrate you, would agree that money and sex/our bodies are apples and oranges.

I really do wish you luck on getting what you want, but you need to have some major epiphanies before any of it can actually happen. When you begin speaking to women like people with depth and thinking of them as human beings your rate of success will improve. Until then you’re herding cats.

9 06 2014
survivingincel

I can only wish women will avoid the handsome bad boys that fucks them on a regular basis…

11 06 2014
P Ray

You may be “dating the Asian guy” now, but don’t expect plaudits, because you have simply “chosen him last”.
That doesn’t mean you’re respecting him, and when I read between the lines that you speak of how well he treats you,
you are admitting that you previously, chose first, men that did not do that.
Should a person who finally makes a wise choices after screwing up many times, be congratulated on their wisdom?

11 06 2014
Maia

She said neither that she had chosen him last (“first and only choice” nor that he treated her well (“self aware, mature and hard working” are general good human qualities).

3 07 2014
P Ray

(and I’ve got a lot of options when it comes to partners, but he’s always my first and only choice)
Why doesn’t she provide her real name then, so the truth of her statements (which are incredible), can be ascertained?

(“self aware, mature and hard working” are general good human qualities).
No complaints there, but as I like to say, it’s amazing how many women after being unable to snag the man of their dreams, then go Asian, proclaiming “I always liked Asian men”.
Men, if she didn’t choose you just before the age of consent, or right after:
YOU ARE BEING SETTLED FOR.
regular women can get dick, far easier than regular men can get (unpaid) pussy.
Harsh truth, but it needs to be repeated so that women don’t pull the wool over regular guys’ eyes.

3 07 2014
Maia

if she didn’t choose you just before the age of consent
…what if you didn’t meet until later in life…?

3 07 2014
Maia

Also, another thing about “if she chose you past the age of consent”: It seems a little unfair to require that one person stay forever with the first person they ever fell in love with. People fall in and out of love, don’t they? People grow up, and change, and move. I had my first boyfriend when I was seventeen; I broke up with him when I went to college, because we’d be so far apart. The next person I dated, whom I dated through all of college, wasn’t my “second choice” — we simply hadn’t met when I was in high school, and I was also a different person back then than the person that I became in college, due to normal things like maturing and exposure to new things.

3 07 2014
P Ray

…what if you didn’t meet until later in life…?
Sorry, women way past the age of consent, are invisible to me.
And, since I’ve led a pure life physically, I can pull the “Yes, I’m a virgin, so you’d better be one too” card.
Oh, and if you want something to steam you up further:
Run my own STEM business, have some (landed) property.
LOLZ.

3 07 2014
Maia

women way past the age of consent, are invisible to me
……..that’s…horrible, I mean — invisible? Even a women your age who is also a virgin?

3 07 2014
P Ray

^ Well, women are horrible once they’ve had enough relationships that don’t pan out. I don’t think I’m missing out on much in not dating them.
She made her choices, I can make mine. That’s what equality is about, amirite?

3 07 2014
Maia

Yes, obviously you’re free to make whatever choices you wish. It just — I mean, you don’t know that you’re “not missing out on much,” right? It seems like you’re greatly limiting your possibilities by thinking this way. Doesn’t that count as hicel and not incel, technically?

3 07 2014
P Ray

It seems like you’re greatly limiting your possibilities by thinking this way. Doesn’t that count as hicel and not incel, technically?
Would you want to spend your life with a guy who visited many prostitutes, had multiple kids by other women, but says you are “his one and only?”
Wouldn’t that be limiting your possibilities too?
People have to make choices, and stick with them. And pay the price for sticking with them.
Because other people are also aware that they have to do the same, and people interacting in bad faith, make others pay the price.

3 07 2014
Maia

with a guy who visited many prostitutes, had multiple kids by other women
Of course not, but that’s a little extreme. I would have no issue dating someone who had had four or five previous relationships, or marrying someone who had been married once before. I think it’s important to accept that people will bring previous experiences with them — as you will bring yours with you — because people grow and change over the course of a lifetime, right? If I met someone, I couldn’t fault him for having met me later in his life — of course he’d dated people before me.

So, yes, your example is extreme — I do think it limits your possibilities to an extreme extent to only date women at or around the age of consent, regardless of whether they’ve had a relationship before or how many.

3 07 2014
P Ray

^ Well, you don’t get to have your own business by taking orders from somebody else, if it makes me out to be extreme, so what.
After all, when your options are limited by ethnicity, you make money … then leverage your position to get what you want.
I see no problem with that, since others use social pressure, beauty, gender, religion or political affiliation to get ahead.
Game on! 🙂

3 07 2014
Maia

Fair enough! I respect that. As long as you do admit that it makes you rather picky. 😉

11 06 2014
P Ray

Women will avoid men with obvious expectations of sexual favors in social situations, because honestly who likes being roped into contracts and commitments without having ample time to read over the fine print and some sort of mutual benefit? Aside from the prostitutes you keep mentioning, many women, the women who frustrate you, would agree that money and sex/our bodies are apples and oranges.
Women want things for free, and use their sexuality to get it.
It only becomes a problem when they have no choice but to pay up in money or kind.
Then, all of a sudden, men are horrible.
Why don’t you try your shaming language and reasoning ability on this page (please contribute an ORIGINAL argument):
human-stupidity.com/stupid-dogma/prostitution/feminist-arguments-against-prostitution-dismantled
“Feminist arguments against prostitution debunked”

I have been converted by the arguments of the antifeminists, that

the feminist movement’s main goal is to reduce male choice in female partners, to force men to dedicate their lives to unattractive, high spending, ruinously expensive feminist sex partners.

I add to this my hypothesis
The balance of power between men and women tilted in favor of women because

Men mostly stopped using physical & economical power,
women maintained their superior social manipulation power and thus,
world-wide, women are biasing laws totally in their favor in clear detriment of men

11 06 2014
Maia

1) Many feminists are anit-prostitution. Many (more) feminists are pro-prostitution. Thus, this article is fundamentally flawed.

2) Women want things for free, and use their sexuality to get it. Nope. Support, please?

3) the feminist movement’s main goal is to reduce male choice in female partners What? Why would anyone want this? This is conspiracy-theory thinking; take a step back and listen to how paranoid you sound.

4) omen are biasing laws totally in their favor in clear detriment of men Really? Can you give me one example? If this is so, why are there so many male lawmakers than female?

11 06 2014
P Ray

For a journalism graduate you are a bit dense, Maia.
Please visit the website and pass your argument there, the words after the link …
come directly from that page.

11 06 2014
Maia

What on earth gave you the impression that I was a journalism major? This is not the first time that you have made an incorrect assumption. You would do well to begin to use evidence to make your conclusions.

Yes, I understand the concept of quotation very well. Typically, when somebody quotes somebody else, that implies that they agree with the person whom they are quoting. Therefore, I don’t believe that I have erred in continuing to argue with you. Are you implying that, by referring me to another website, you are absolved of all responsibility? That I must now “pass my argument there” instead of continuing to talk to you, the person whom I have been talking to this entire time?

11 06 2014
P Ray

Well, yes.
You want something to say on the topic of “feminist arguments against prostitution debunked”,
you go to that page to do it.

Otherwise, all you are doing,
is arguing against me without context.

It’s fair that your statements against that piece, which it is evident you dislike, you bring those statements to the website that originated that piece, correct?

After all, there’s lots more in that article I haven’t said (thus which people wouldn’t know about), so … you should rebut those points, rather than the teaser intro.

Am I right?

Or will you bring up the points in the article, without actually referencing the article? Which would be pointless, since unless people were on that site AND this one, they wouldn’t be able to see if your arguments carried any weight.

11 06 2014
Maia

Okay, but my point wasn’t to refute that article. You used it to support a point you made in our ongoing conversation. I argued against your point and continued the conversation. I linked to a Daily Beast article earlier in this thread; you didn’t go there and try to argue against every single point he made, did you?

Besides: as I told you, I disagree with the underlying assumption of that article you linked to — namely, that prostitution is anti-feminist. “Rebut[ting] those points” would be rather useless, since I disagree with the basic premise.

3 07 2014
P Ray

Many (more) feminists are pro-prostitution. Thus, this article is fundamentally flawed.
The bulk of feminists are from the West. Please show me a pro-prostitution Western, English-language feminist organisation website (that is not European)?

3 07 2014
Maia

Heard of Jezebel? Pretty mainstream, prominent American feminist website, right? http://jezebel.com/5978052/some-feminists-are-wrongfully-fighting-against-sex-workers

3 07 2014
P Ray

^ So, the feminists push through all kinds of female-friendly laws, but they can’t make paid sex legal in America?
Ya right. They DON’T want to make paid sex legal in America.

3 07 2014
Maia

feminists push through all kinds of female-friendly laws
After a lot of hard work, women achieved the right to vote and the right to abortion (only in some states, though). However, this was hard work, as the American government is controlled by men. If you’re upset that prostitution isn’t legal, I would blame men as much as women (if not more, since there are simply more men in government) — especially the religious right.

3 07 2014
P Ray

P.S. Jezebel is a WEBSITE not an ORGANISATION WITH LEGAL REPRESENTATION IN GOVERNMENT.

3 07 2014
Maia

I’m afraid I don’t quite know what you mean by “an organization with legal representation in government.” Could you give me an example of such an organization? Do you mean political parties, or are you rather referring to lobbyists?

3 07 2014
P Ray

^ I would just like to see a bunch of laws that Jezebel had a hand in helping pass (or stop).
Do you know of any?
If not, they’re simply empty vessels … that make a lot of noise.

3 07 2014
Maia

I don’t — but do you know of any feminists who had a direct hand in anti-prostitution regulation? The voices of women are not typically heard in government; when they are, it becomes controversial and therefore famous, because it’s so rare. The United States’ government is overwhelmingly composed of men.

4 07 2014
P Ray

I don’t — but do you know of any feminists who had a direct hand in anti-prostitution regulation? The voices of women are not typically heard in government; when they are, it becomes controversial and therefore famous, because it’s so rare. The United States’ government is overwhelmingly composed of men.
Overwhelmingly composed of men – who are married to women.
It’s unbelievable that those women would not hold influence.
Also, remember Roe vs. Wade?
It turns out that Roe (Norma McCorvey) lied about being raped, so that she could abort the baby.
from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey
“Eventually, McCorvey was referred to attorneys Linda Coffee and Sarah Weddington,[13][14] who were looking for pregnant women that were seeking an abortion. Whenever she told the lawyers that she was a lesbian, they were disappointed, so she also lied and told them that she was raped. She signed the papers, and thus began Roe v. Wade. The case took three years of trials to reach the United States Supreme Court, and Norma never attended even one trial. In the meantime, McCorvey had given birth to the baby in question, who was eventually adopted.[3]

McCorvey revealed herself to the press as being “Jane Roe” soon after the decision’s issuance and stated that she sought an abortion because she was unemployable and greatly depressed.[15] In the 1980s, McCorvey asserted that she had been the “pawn” of two young and ambitious lawyers (Weddington and Coffee) who were looking for a plaintiff with whom they could challenge the Texas state law prohibiting abortion.[16]”

There are your famous feminists, Maia.
Yes, women have no power to make laws get passed. /sarcasm

5 07 2014
Maia

So notice how I said both “After a lot of hard work, women achieved the right to vote and the right to abortion (only in some states, though)” AND “The voices of women are not typically heard in government; when they are, it becomes controversial and therefore famous, because it’s so rare.” The right to vote and abortion rights are the TWO exceptions that make the rule; those are the only two things women have been able to pass.

Overwhelmingly composed of men – who are married to women.
It’s unbelievable that those women would not hold influence.

So basically you’re suggesting:
laws made only by men with no influence from women at all = correct
laws made by men who are somewhat influenced by women = FEMALE-DOMINATED!!111!!!!

There are your famous feminists, Maia.
Again, I would appreciate it if you didn’t make assumptions about me. “My” nothing.

Also:
YES, some women lie about rape.
ALSO:
– some people murder
– some people steal
– some people rape
– some people lie
– etc. etc.

some women have lied about rape ≠ all women lie about rape
some men steal ≠ all men steal

6 07 2014
P Ray

I notice you left out that good old feminist canard that all men are rapists?
Why is that?
Well, to add to your list of funnies, remember
only women abort 🙂

6 07 2014
Maia

I notice you left out that good old feminist canard that all men are rapists?
Why is that?

…because it’s not true? Of course not all men are rapists. Very, very, very few men are rapists, just like very few people are murderers.

If you want to make your arguments more convincing, you have to stop making assumptions. This is something that’s come up time and time again. Here are the assumptions you got wrong:
– that I would think that
– that that’s a common thing that feminists think
– that all feminists believe the same things

6 07 2014
P Ray

^I’ll believe you saying “feminists think differently” when paid sex is completely legal in America (only in Nevada, doesn’t count).
Until then, feminists do not think differently.

5 06 2014
Lon Spector

I meant the role that Carridine played in Kung Fu, not
his real life. I’m sure many incls have died in that manner.

11 07 2014
P Ray

Oh ya, forgot to put these 2 links here:
dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/hypergamous-arms-race-revenge-of-the-nerds/

dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/is-marcos-evil-for-conning-women-looking-to-trade-sex-for-financial-security/

Remember, guys …
women CHOOSE whom to be with when they’re at their most attractive,
BUT
men CHOOSE who to commit to.
If you are being CHOSEN LAST,
make sure to GET PAID FOR IT (or even don’t go through with the “rotten deal” LOL).

12 07 2014
eduardkoopman

Nice links, and legit comment.
I feel I’m also 1 of the guys that get chosen last, since women see me as beta or whatever you guys call it. When I was young and still largely I guess I don’t arouse women much, but the 30+ women seem to consider me for the beta provider role.
I’m not that dumb, and I don’t like to play that role nor do I aim for a commited relationship. I in essence prefer to have sex with plenty women. What worked best for me so far, is playing along with the beta-provider role they cast me for. And me trying to get them to have sex with me as quick as possible, (usually maximum 5 dates I give it). And then after haveing had sex with them, I move on if I don’t like her.
It’s to only way I have managed to get laid om a semi-regular basis when single.But not whith the younger women, most with momen in or after their late twenties.

You guys also pplay the game this way. Or you use better ways?
I thought and tried a bit, to aim for being the badboy type; but I can’t pull it off because it’s to much out of character for me and also I guess I’m not attractive enough for that type of game.
.

14 07 2014
P Ray

Whatever you do: RESPECT YOURSELF.
Don’t throw away your life, money, emotion, education or ability to “follow” a woman.
Men who think “women are so much more valuable than me”,
end up in this situation:
http://belladaisy22xo.livejournal.com/

14 07 2014
eduardkoopman

@P Ray
That http://belladaisy22xo.livejournal.com/ link you pasted is fucking hillarious.
Some men can be so fucking pathetic

16 07 2014
P Ray

“I believe the meme that “betas are manipulative assholes” is a self-serving meme created by alphas (+puas) and women to maintain and justify the status quo. For alphas, it justifies their over-aggressive, domineering personality; it somehow excuses their behavior as ‘honest’. For women, this allows them social cover to prefer an alpha douchebag. Together, they have tried to convince betas that being a decent person is a bad thing.

Not disclosing your interest in a woman and claiming you compare favorably to other men are misdemeanors compared to the felonies that alphas often commit. I agree beta orbiting is a losing strategy; for that reason alone it should be abandoned. But that’s only because women want an aggressive man who displays qualities of high-value, whether he has high-value or not. Ignoring a lower value man is demonstrating high-value as a man; so that is what alphas and PUA alphas do. Talking over other men and speaking loudly is a trait of a high-value man who is used to being heard. Insulting other men to their face, and getting away with it (this part being crucial), is definitely a trait of high-value men. I agree with the parts of alpha that say put a woman in her place. I am more circumspect about the traits of an alpha that instruct men to gain value by using aggression to move your way up the pecking order. Then of course one can be direct with a woman about your sexual intentions because after observing these asshole/dominant traits, it’s game-on.

Being alpha, in a way, is succumbing to a woman’s world view of how one ought to be. If you’re just dominant with her, but compatible or cooperative with other men, she’ll see through the fakeness of your supposed ‘high-value’ and it seems that this where some PUAs fail unless they become an all-around asshole (make AMOG a permanent part of their mentality).

Just my two cents on the subject.”
TL, DR: Women mislead men on what they really want, so that the man tries to appease her.

13 07 2014
Jess N.

I have to say that I’ve loved reading your blog so far. It baffles me that you’re ‘incel’. I guess since I wasn’t raised as a man-hating feminist, and my parent’s marriage lasted until my father’s death(she refuses to even date after 3years)..I might see things in a different light. The whole concept of dating guys that are jerks, ‘bad boys’ etc never occurred to me. I look at you and see an attractive guy, and intelligent to boot. It’s great that you’re becoming more healthy, and trying to get into the best shape possible. That is an admirable quest..I wish you luck in this insane dating world.

13 07 2014
survivingincel

thank you for your support

14 07 2014
Jesslyn Nicole

Anytime. 🙂

15 07 2014
P Ray

An antidote to the stupid saying (almost all) women and alpha men use:
“Incel men need to stop asking out the hot girls, as the average girl would surely want to be with him, if he would just ask!”
http://matingselfishness.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/myth-dateless-men-are-only-bitter-because-they-shot-out-of-their-league/
AlekNovy posted this response:

Let me answer the “guys only chase hot babes, and ignore the average/uggo women” point you brought up…

You are correct that many of the bitter men around the net are average guys who went around only hitting on the hottest women, ignored the average ones, and then went to complain no women like them.

It is true that when a guy complains that no women like him, it’s because he has experienced tons of rejections. However, the main reason he’s bitter is because NO WOMEN HAVE EVER SHOWN HIM INTEREST. That’s the point. EVER, in his entire life!

Your point that there’s a ton of average women who WOULD be interested if he asked them out, is irrelevant, because these lazy women are PROACTIVELY HIDING their interest. I don’t count subtle signals as hair flicks, accidental bumps and subtle hinting as “clamoring for his attention”, because that shit is only visible to women. On the actual surface-level, obvious communication level, these womeen PROACTIVELY DO HIDE their interest and act cool, uninterested and indifferent.

THEIR THEORETICAL INTEREST is IRRELEVANT when they don’t show it in CLEAR UNAMBIGIOUS ways, and when they proactively hide interest and play games. Women FORCE this SADISTIC ritual onto men where the man is forced to gather massive amounts of rejection before he gets a woman who finally admits interest back.

All of this could end TOMMOROW if women stopped playing the plausible deniability, interest-hiding game.

Basically, there is a MASSIVE thing you’re not seeing here…

You say the average guys were not hitting on the average women… BUT WHAT YOU ARE MISSING IS THAT… Those average women were ALSO not hitting on those average guys either! In other words, those average women were sitting around with an ENTITLED attitude of FEMALE PRIVILEGE, sitting around going “Guys need to approach me, kiss me first, ask me out first etc, show first clear sign of interest etc”.

See, the thing is. Being male is this massive pool of doing all the work, taking tons of rejections and seeing little gratitude for it. That changes little depending on whom you are pursuing.

– If an average guy goes out and hits on a 100 hotties, 97 will reject him.
– If an average guy goes out and hits on a 100 average women, 94 will reject him.

DO YOU SEE? While it is true that He’d have DOUBLE the success if he went for average women (3 women vs 6 women), the big picture is both involve tons of pain, tons of unreciprocicated effort etc (97 rejections vs 94 rejections).

The main issue is women’s laziness and passivity and plausible deniability. Those 6 average women will not hit on him, ask him out, etc etc. They are just as lazy as entitled as the 3 hot ones. Make sense?

If average women were less lazy, your point would hold more value, but as it stands, with women’s laziness, there’s little incentive for men to go for entitled average women.

The REASON these men are bitter is NOT because they shot out of their league. The reason they’re bitter is that they’re SICK of the system women have created and upkeep, a system that forces men to endure pain, humiliation, rejection and have to do all the work.

15 07 2014
eduardkoopman

To add t the AlekNovy post.
It also hurts a bit less if you get rejected 97% of the time by hot women; comparred to getting rejected 90% of the time by avergae/women your own “league”. Because getting rejected by 90% orso average/ women your own league, can easily make you wonder what your level of attractiveness is.
I would say though that 94% estimation seems a bit high, I would think more like between 70 – 80% at least in my experience.

But still, getting rejected by plenty % women that are perfectly in your own league, It takes a strong centered men, not to feel down about it.

15 07 2014
P Ray

And along the way you’ve inflated the egos of the 90+% of women you’ve interacted in the way that resulted in an “obvious” rejection … with no benefit to you.
See, the thing here is that incels need to copy the verbal approach of the pickup artist:
Never “give the woman a chance to directly reject you” as this is the selfsame action that gives her “high self-esteem that only male model tier guys are worth having sex with” along with feminist excuses of “women are more depressed (since they are not being pumped by male models)”.

The interaction works like this, tell her e.g. “You’re an interesting girl, I’ll be at this place if you want to hang out later”.
Never ask women for a date, that is an interaction that gives them the power to reject. Where there’s no “direct asking” there’s no “direct rejection”.
Oh, and … don’t have expectations of women that you believe won’t be honest with you (in other words, most of them, since they want to only share the top 10% of men).
Earn money, then leverage that.

22 07 2014
thatincelblogger

Hey survivinginel, I usually don’t advertise my posts but this is a crucial one. Read if when you find time http://thatincelblogger.wordpress.com/2014/07/22/the-story-of-your-incel-an-inconvenient-truth/

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s




Boy DOESN'T Meet Girl

Welcome to the dark ages of male-female relations.

The Human Mating

Empiricism is the path of the knowledge

Third World Hero

my weight loss progress to get a girl

MICHAEL FORMAN AUTHOR

Neo-noir-erotica to get between the bone and flesh.

rantsofanincel

This is a site dedicated to men who suffer incel/TFL

THELONEWOLFTRAVELER

Travel, sex, aond dating blog, tourist, non confrmist, adventure seeker, culture explorer, sex and dating travel blog, Asian pioneer, Asian Manosphere, Asian Pride Website, A kickass blog for the Asian man, Author of #1 Amazon best seller "Get Laid in Hong Kong. A Travel Guide for the Western Asian Male."

M3

I will face my fear and let it pass through me.

The Sweat Project

A Personal Fitness Journey

Prego and the Loon

Pregnant and Dealing With Domestic Violence

Love Is My Only Addiction

Love Can Be Digested By All

Playing the Devil's Advocate

Upholding Dissent and Skepticism

CoAlphaAntiModernistIncelBlogger

Anti-modernist, anti-feminist, anti-liberal, anti-MRA, anti-seduction pro-patriarchy/reactionary, pro-Islam blog on incel, love-shyness, decline of the Western civilization/modern culture, concept of coalpha men/society and life in general

Freedom From The Gynocracy

There is no personal solution to systemic problems, and feminism/women is a systemic problem.

No 'FRIES' for 365

- My Journey: A Blog About Fitness, Nutrition, & Overall Health -

The WordPress.com Blog

The latest news on WordPress.com and the WordPress community.

%d bloggers like this: