Are incel men actually a silent MAJORITY?

28 01 2014

on PUAHate and the loveshy forums, there are often arguments on what population of men are actually pure incel. Many claims the 80-20 rule, as women in our society are attracted to 20% of the best looking population of men, while the 80% either becomes the provider, learn to “game” or be incel.

According to the study on Love-shyness by Brian G. Gilmartin, 2% of the adult male population in the USA are virgin loveshies. That was in the 1980s when the study had been done. For the past few years I get to travel around the USA to many states from coast to coast, I seem to encounter many perpetual single men like myself everywhere I go. So my question is, the 80-20 correct? What do you guys think?

If I am the only incel on the planet, then I would say the problem is with me. But if I encounter incel men everywhere in all parts of this country, it shows that the problem isn’t with me, but the problem is with the fucked up western society.

However, if we are indeed a silent majority, why isn’t this a problem being addressed in the media?




27 responses

29 01 2014

According to Wikipedia One and only One study has ever been done on incel males. This study found that 80% of females are dating, but only 20% of males are dating. The 80/20 split may not be perfectly accuate, but it is in the correct ball park.

29 01 2014

Yes, the 80/20 rule is most certainly correct. It does not mean that 80% of men are incel.. Incel men are certainly the minority, however, it means that most men will settle on being pussywhipped, because they know that they will not be able to find someone else, if their woman dumps them. Most men have to settle for fat or ugly women, since any woman who is a 7 or above will most certainly date in the top 20%, except in rare circumstances. I would say that men who are genuinely incel make up 10-15% of the population.

29 01 2014

that is VERY high compared to Gilmartin’s study

29 01 2014

When I say 10-15% of the population, I mean the population of men. This would be equal to ~6% of the total population in the US. Keep in mind that Gilmartin’s study was done a long time ago. Things for men have gotten much worse since then.

4 02 2014
P Ray

Don’t forget to count as incel, those guys told endlessly by women that “they haven’t found the right girl” and must “show them a good time” forever, each situation ending with “you’re such a good guy, let’s just be friends”, but no penis in vagina.
Women make lousy friends, when they observe men who are unattached and yet do nothing to help them meet an attractive girl – which further demonstrates the reality that women only want the top 10% of men, hence should not be disappointed when having lost their looks and youth … most men don’t want them for the long term.
They have a coping mechanism for that though, making out in the media and real world that “cougars are hot” and “only creepy men like young girls” – such an attitude promotes “nice guys finish last” by letting them “end up” with the girl who had more pricks than a cactus farmer.
Instinctively, I believe most men understand that truth about the “girl they end up with” which is why, other than hypergamy in women, many of the regular guys are refusing to get married.
Good job, women!

5 02 2014

Like I said in a previous comment, women today don’t just “calm down” after a certain age. As the fact they can depend on the welfare state in the west to provide for them, so they can become cougars and fuck younger guys.

the government is the ultimate beta provider

21 10 2014
Leah Hudson

As a woman who’s about a 5, this comment makes me frown. Are you really interested in connecting with another person, or do you just want the hot ones?

22 10 2014

here in the USA, there are plenty of lonely desperate chomps who will GLADLY be ANY women’s walking ATM

31 01 2014

I think it’d be hard to accurately establish a percentage. Before we consider the possibility that some men won’t admit to it, understand or be aware of incel, we’d have qualify what INCEL is. Are men who suffer from medical conditions that render them unable to perform sex to be included in the numbers? The forum you speak of uses the term ‘love shy’ so are we to add them too? Love isn’t sex and the men who are afraid to ‘love’ might still engage in sex. Women have a word for them: Narcissists. Who is the TRUE INCEL?

31 01 2014

this poll is on pure speculation. the non-cel can get relationship and sex on a rather regular basis. the incel cannot get relationship nor sex. a hardcore incel has NEVER gotten any type of sex and relationship. some incels go through long periods of dry spells.

31 01 2014

you are right, as most people will not answer the question about number of sex partners they have honestly. women will understate(they often don’t count the one night stands or the guys they don’t like or fucks they did under influence of alcohol) the number while men overstate it(they can’t all the numbers women don’t, and they exaggerate it).

1 02 2014
Tyrion Lannister

Agreed with the author, I do not believe that surveys are a reliable indication of mating distributions (ie. there is consistent evidence of falsified reporting – and every indication that males embellish, while females understate), especially when it disagrees so strongly with what sexual evolution predicts.

I think it’s not very feasible to estimate the population proportion of incel men in each western country, but we could try to verify the male likelihood of pairing with females – that would give to us an approximate framework of real male mating opportunities and variance. First, we know that the distribution of male reproductive success is more variable and skewed than for the female reproductive success. And this dynamic doesn’t need to be arbitrarily measured; so our suspicion can be reasonably inferred from data/investigation that agrees in all frames of observation. And making this we can justify such assumptions from agreement with a prevailing evolutionary synthesis.

What is the basis of this dynamic? “The authors of “Freakonomics” discovered that 56% of men that create an online dating profile do not even get one single message (compared with 21% of females) while Jupiter Research found that 97% quit within 3 months.”

An old OKCupid study also found that male appraisals of female attractiveness followed a normal distribution curve, while female appraisals of male attractiveness found a shocking 80% of males to be BELOW average in attractiveness (suggesting that some preconcieved notions are skewing their assessments). However other data from this site are less reliable, see below.

This is all consistent with the fact that males and females really *do* have conflicting reproductive agendas, courtesy of sexual evolution (females have lower reproductive potential, and thus compensate qualitatively by being more selective – conflicting with the high-rate, reproductive strategies of males). Thus, it seems fairly obvious to conclude that female CHOICE tends to be the contrary element in courtship interactions, given that males are not only less selective, but they are pragmatic – deprived of opportunities for casual sex(which most are), they are more than willing to pursue a LTR as their mating strategy.

Which is why it is likewise reasonable to conclude that if women are, indeed, being deprived of LTRs, it can only be because their CHOICES are unwilling to compromise on their opportunities – where their expectations are presumably fixated on LTR opportunities with the highest value males (which are prohibitively rare, given the abudance of opportunities for casual sex that these males enjoy).

We have many reasons to suppose this, beyond online dating data (which supports that females are more selective, given that message frequency is a corollary of selectivity), which poses too many confounders in the data to rely upon too strongly.

Most animal species display strong skew in mating frequency in which a few males obtain most of the matings, while the rest have little or no succes. Variance in male mating success can be thus interpreted as a result of phenotypic differences among males which females perceive and to which they respond. Variation in mating succes is most pronounced in Leks species (and which 10-20% of males often obtain 70-80% of the matings). In humans evidence indicates that all human mating leks (bar/nightclubs, speed dating, online dating), exhibit greater variance in male mating success than expected by chance.

Okcupid marketed their own study on mating distributions (Unsolicited messages and response rates), but but after examining their overall resulting data, I would say they are quite suspicious (i.e. the average attractive men get about 30% response from the most attractive women! It is hilarious LoL), at least for those like myself who have spent years observing the online dating dynamics. I figure out that it was just another marketing tactic to entice male users into registering. Although giving somebody false hope by lying to them is not a good way to establish a business. Fortunately other dating sites (and plenty of male daters in forums) have posted their mean reply rates for male users – but less detailed studies- (anyway agreeing more with reality).

Since there are potential limitations with field courtship research (and speed-dating) within a controlled setting by myself – and asssuming that external validityin online dating seems not potentially be compromised – I tried to exam the matching dynamic by myself in an experiment (unpublished) in the context of online dating. I created male and female dummy profiles, varying in sociosexual desirability (physical attractiveness). I found:

Unsolicited female messages (mean number):

Highly attractive males: 63.5
Moderately attractive: 8.66
Average attractive: 5
Unattractive: 0

Male response rate (sending 300 messages):

Highly attractive: 41.67% of HA, 68.75% MA, 80% AA, 92% U.
Moderately attractive: 0% of HA, 3.71% MA, 35.42% AA, 72.94% U.
Average attractive: 0% of HA, 2.5% MA, 11.33% AA, 47.93% U.
Unattractive: 0% of HA, 0% MA, 0% AA, 7.82% U.

Unsolicited male messages (mean number):

Highly attractive females: 1058
Moderately attractive: 1005
Average attractive: 942
Unattractive: 167

Female response rate:

Highly attractive: 95% HA, 98% MA, 100% AA, 100 UA.
Moderately attractive: 93% HA, 71% MA, 100% AA, 100 UA.
Average attractive: 84% HA, 66% MA, 100% AA, 100 UA.

My controlled testing reveals of male/female mating preferences, and the resultant asymmetry. But my empirical experiment lacks a great reliability and external validity. I would rather apply the results from this particular experiment to more general populations. On the other hand, the controls used in a new experiment should be more meaningful and strict. And the sample size should be large enough to predict any meaningful relationships between the variables being studied.

Hence I want to suggest that all of us together could make a longitudinal study of population variation in male mating success (i.e. with more human means and logistical resources). There are simple models to quantify the potential contributions to such variation in male mating success (equivalent to the number of female matings per male), mainly through online dating.

8 02 2014

listen guys i understand how you feel ive been there. Have you ever thought of letting god help you find mate? if you repent of your sins be born again and fast and pray and have faith and trust in jesus christ everything is possible. Give your life to god who cares if you cant get laid you got the kingdom of hevan. One day we will all die then what do you really want to go to hell for chasing after your lusts. Its not worth do not make earth your kingdom it is temporary. Trust me dont worry about those who are living it up in sin they will pay with the second death. Plus do you really want to lose your virginity to a women who will treat you like scum and humiliate can overcome this because christ has already overcome

8 02 2014

an incel man’s job in the afterlife is to greet suicide bombers with 71 other poor bastards like himself

12 02 2014

Superb analysis. I ran across this blog accidentally, and I must say you really know what your talking about. As an Arab-American much of what you say holds true for me as well. Almost all my rejections were from Arab girls.
the only Asian I know (Korean) that’s successful with women is a drug dealing thug with a rap sheet a mile long. He once told me that women never gave him the time of day when he was a typical nerd. Go figure

14 02 2014

I figure white girl would find you dangerous and go for ya. a lot of arab guys know how to take charge in a relationship. be like the typical assertive men from the old country I think you might have a shot.

15 02 2014

Hello, assian friend. I´m 23 involuntary celibacy male. I would like explain to you my situation. I´m pure Love Shy. I´m from Spain, a extremely conservative country where women rearely start an informal conversation with a man ;(.

I can´t get girlfriend, kiss or sex because I´m so shy with women. However I´m good looking guy: I have masculine face, healthy body, muscles with good proportion, etc.

I tried to solve my problem with online dating. I talk with a lot of hot women online. Always they see me on webcam they get hot. They practice masturbation watching my body, they show me tittys, pussy and cry “fuck me like an animal”. Attractive women said me I´m hot guy and they would like to fuck with me.

I order to women reveal me: doesn´t matter if you are a nice guy or a bad guy. In order to have sex with you, only physical attractive is important (I M NICE GUY, BUT LOVE SHY)

Saturday nights, when I go out in night clubs groups of women approach me.
And they dace near to me… tounching my body with their ass, etc.
It´s signal of attraction but they never open me a conversation 😦
I can´t say “Hello” to a women 😦 due to shyness

I decide to solve my problem one for time. Don´t be love shy no more.
Next time girls show me attraction signals I´ll try star a conversation.

I need to lose the fear.

If in a few months… I get success…. I could confirm you that physical is the only determinant to have sex with girls.

I´l be reading your blog. Friend.

15 02 2014

I am reading this with a Spanish accent

17 02 2014

Hey my spanish brother, here’s to you. A toast good luck to get your success.
I wish you all the best (even though your people & my people fought a long time ago (philippines) i hold no grudge against you).

Have you considered going to Poland? You might find that Polish women are very receptive to Spanish guys.

19 02 2014
Tyrion Lannister

I contend that the whole ‘Love-shy’ meme is (generally) a spurious observation. We observe that attractive males have a justified confidence/social skills (ie. those whose confidence has some justified basis in some prior history of success) tend to attract women, so they are able to be confident because they have a justified expectation of continued mating success.

It is not very common a physically beautiful male with indications of shyness and social avoidant traits – such males would be at an evolutionary disadvantage for eschewing a plethora of mating opportunities, and thus evolution will cull their frequencies to a prohibitive rarity. In fact, males that are rather shy are less choosy and less popular. Moreover, shyness is negatively related to physical attractiveness. And good-looking males are less lonely, less socially anxious, more popular, more socially skilled, and more sexually experienced than less attractive males. So physical attractiveness is negatively correlated to social apprehension.

Avoidant males don’t seek out opportunities to initiate a new relationship generally because they want to minimize rejections. For optimal romantic relationship initiation, we would want to maximize hits, approaches to desirable partners who reciprocate our interest. Courtship rejections, on the other hand, are more painfully straightforward: approaching a desirable partner and finding out that she does not reciprocate our interest

Let us take an example. First, physical attractiveness works as a trigger of approach towards potential mates. When we take a men’s physical attractiveness as an example of a crucial factor in determining his value as mate we derive at two possible errors in social inhibition in courtship: A very physically attractive man, but socially avoidant: When someone is highly inhibited in their approach, it is mainly an adaptative trait for minimizing potential rejection; but if a physically appealing male is too restricted by his fears, he is missing plenty of potential partners who would have reciprocated their interest. A maladaptative evolutionary feature.

Females may allow affectations of sexual confidence to skew their expectations (ie. of sexual performance), and ultimately their choices (but again, my argument is that this effect will be subtle, and rarely determinate – they still won’t opt for a swaggering ugly guy, over a shy handsome guy).

21 03 2014

seems obvious from the grammar and spelling errors and the tone of the poster he is trying to troll. I guess you didn’t detect that

21 05 2014
Lon Spector

All negativity is for naught. If you can’t be happy WITHOUT
something, you wouldn’t be happy even if you had it.
Buddism tells us that happiness lies NOT in the fulfilment of
desire, but the ABSENCE of desire.
Simply understand that it is your own negativity that is making
your miserible and disquard it.

24 05 2014

you will die from lacking physical necessity whether you desire it or not

12 06 2014
Lon Spector

Sex is NOT a necessity. There are PLENTY of celibate monks.
You only THINK you MUST have sex for any number of reasons.
Nobody ever died from not having sex, except the victims from
mass shootings by guys who lacked sex with blonds.

13 06 2014

“man don’t live on bread alone”, my friend. Why don’t you switch places with the typical incel and tell me then

11 08 2015

After living several decades on this penal planet, I have to tell you guys that incels are in demand for those women who can’t deny their innate need to breed. She couldn’t attract the Alpha she really wanted, so she shifts her attention to the incel beta she can manipulate into marrying her. Once she’s a mother, all he has to do is keep going to work to support her and her spawn. He can even keep his hobbies, as this means she doesn’t have him underfoot all the time. She gets to play house, he got laid once, and his life didn’t change all that much. He can then tell those incels he knows who never got laid that sex isn’t all that anyway, since procreation was effected and the need evaporated before he ever got to see what potential it might have had.

25 05 2016
Lonesome 30

Love shy is real condition:Physical attractiveness+inborn tendencies towards introversion+a society that hates your guts=incel,a special type of disorder preventing you to find a woman and better job opportunities

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